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Of course the Russians did it. They're the experts
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| HardTranceProd |
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There are lots of reasons to doubt the sensational claims by Andrei Lugovoy, the Russian accused of murdering Alexander Litvinenko, that it was in fact the British Government wot did it.
He’s a KGB officer, for starters. That’s the kind of job that doesn’t tend to encourage or reward guileless declarations of unimpeachable fact before the television cameras. Then there’s the problem that Mr Lugovoy’s case isn’t helped by the lack of any supporting evidence of British government involvement, nor by the awkward fact of the long trail of polonium-210 that seemed to follow his own movements across Europe in the days surrounding Litvinenko’s murder.
But the biggest reason for suspicion is that, if what he said is true it would mark a wholly implausible reversal of fortunes in the decades–long struggle for supremacy between Russian and Western intelligence agencies.
The truth is that we in the West may have won the Cold War but when it came to the intelligence battle, we came in a distant second. The Litvinenko affair – a hit job carried out with evident impunity by Russian agents on foreign soil – is a sorry reminder of how overmatched we were in the Cold War in the spy business.
Other than Olympic shot-putters chemically propelled to athletic excellence by a dehumanising regime desperate for some ersatz legitimacy, intelligence was about the only thing the Russians did really well. They may not have been able to make the trains run on time or increase wheat production in Moldova, but by golly they knew how to eavesdrop, wiretap, blackmail and bribe their way into the most sensitive of the West’s inner sanctums.
Consider a Cold War balance sheet. They bumped off Soviet defectors at will and almost killed the Pope. We had a cunning plan to explode cigars in Fidel Castro’s beard.
They had Philby, Burgess, MacLean, Blunt and just about every clever undergraduate at Cambridge who ever responded warmly to any man who sidled up to them over a late-night sherry. We had a few brave but terrorised dissidents who invariably ended up in the Lubyanka or Siberia.
We gave them our atomic secrets so they could build the weapon that saved their regime – at least for 40 years. They gave us lectures at the UN about human freedom.
Not that they always got it right. There’s a nice story about a French diplomat, caught in flagrante delicto with a couple of Soviet beauties, who received the customary incriminating photographs readied for copying to his wife back in Paris along with a letter inviting him to cooperate.
Go ahead, he told them. I haven’t lived with my wife for 20 years and I can’t wait to see her face when she gets a look at the new me.
But cock-ups, as it were, like that were rare in Soviet Russia. And since the Cold War ended the story hasn’t changed much.
Our intelligence agencies have developed an unhappy knack of uncovering threats where there are none and failing to find them where they are. They didn’t really spot the terror of al-Qaeda until it was way too late. They told us in 1991 that Iraq was nowhere close to developing nuclear weapons when, it turned out, they were on the very brink. Then they told us in 2003 that Iraq might be on the very brink of developing nuclear weapons when it turned out they were nowhere close.
None of this is to speak too harshly of the efforts of MI5, MI6 or the CIA. It is merely a reflection of the asymmetric struggle between intelligence agencies in democratic and totalitarian societies. Penetrating regimes that are run on a premise of domestic terror requires really painstaking and risk-laden effort. Finding out what goes on in open democracies? Not so much.
The Lugovoy-Litvinenko saga underscores the fact that this basic imbalance has not changed in the 16 years since we won the Cold War. We remain, paradoxically, the victim of our own freedoms, which they exploit ruthlessly – including, as yesterday, leading along a fabulously credulous media. They remain, paradoxically, secure in their own paranoia and insecurity.
It’s partly why I think Vladimir Putin is so nostalgic for another Cold War. He worked for the KGB, remember, and in hard intelligence terms those were heady days for their side. That we have entered another troubling phase in our relations with Russia is not in doubt.
... As for those claims by Mr Lugovoy that British intelligence is actively trying to destabilise the Russian President, I sincerely hope they are true. But if I were him, I wouldn’t be losing any sleep.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/co...icle1867905.ece
Also this interesting piece, for those who doubt the evidence of Lugovoi's involvement:
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Clues point to the Kremlin
The murder of the former KGB man Alexander Litvinenko was “undeniably state-sponsored terrorism on Moscow’s part. That is the view at the highest levels of the British government”.
This official had access to the latest police and intelligence findings, and he was reflecting the views of senior Home Office counter-terrorism officials, Scotland Yard detectives and others with close knowledge of the murder investigation. All confirmed last week that they believe the plot to poison Litvinenko in London last year was ordered by the Russian secret service, the FSB.
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Until now - while there has been press speculation about the FSB’s and even Putin’s responsibility for Litvinenko’s death - informed sources have confined themselves to the theory that former secret service associates killed him because of a personal vendetta.
After a police investigation, the Crown Prosecution Service wanted to charge Andrei Lugovoi, a former FSB officer, with the murder; and it was Moscow’s refusal to allow his extradition for trial, once the scandal had become an affair of state, that led to the expulsions.
Now, however, British officials are saying that the police investigation implicates the FSB itself. They point to the estimated £4.5m cost of the radio-active polonium210 used to kill Litvinenko. They confirm it has been traced back to Russia - probably to the nuclear centre at the closed city of Sarov.
They also point out that last summer the Russian parliament gave Putin the right to order the FSB to carry out assassinations of “enemies of the Russian state”. They are careful to refrain from claiming he actually ordered the killing. “Yes, the road leads to the FSB, but where the road goes once it’s inside the FSB is not something the police are really aware of,” said one of the officials.
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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/ne...icle2116262.ece |
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| Magnetonium |
Yeah, FSB has spent 25 MILLION DOLLARS to kill some low-threat low-level dissident??? Thats bull. I already covered this. The polonium trail has gone out of Lugovoi's way as well, and was found in Germany in apartments of other businessmen and in Berevosky's offices, and on TWO DIFFERENT British airliners (I assume Lugovoi was on both AT THE SAME TIME). And Lugovoi's associates were poisoned as well. Litvinenko had no secrets that would compromise Russia, he only had speculations, just like all other Russian dissidents do, so nothing new here. They are all anti-Russian, and Berezovsky was the one Russia was actually pursuing for (but somehow they didnt poison him). FSB DOES NOT carry out assassinations abroad, thats CLEARLY stated in their rules. Its only GRU that ever does this, and they is no talk about them and its not their jurisdiction anyway (they target terrorists). The story lacks logic and lacks proof from British side to convict and extradite Lugovoi. They only claim, suspect, view Lugovoi as the murderer, while presenting no evidence to back that up, something that's common in China where you're guilty until proven innocent.
As for polonium-210 traced to Russia, thats quite odd, since the polonium-210 doesnt just put out "Made In Russia" symbol, and polonium-210 is the same in UK as it is in Russia. Its not a different substance. Plus, there's no evidence Russian government or the Russian police did this, I already pointed this out many times, ABSOLUTELY ZERO evidence, this case has become politicized. The only person that should have been blamed or accused is Lugovoi, but thats not the case here, isnt it? But since I know well the British media and its sensationalism, well, they've been caught lying and exagerrating things on many occasions. But they are successful at lying and brainwahsing the British public into creating a new enemy to fight. Because they're too bored or trying to sway attention from the war in Iraq to build a war against Russia. |
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| Magnetonium |
You guys should just give up with this nonsense, until you present proof and undeniable evidence that Lugovoi and/or Russian government did this, because until then its obvious that you guys are bent on starting a new Cold War with Russia. It wasnt Russia who started this in the first place, it wasnt in Russian interests to do this, it didnt involve any risky elements to Russian state, and for the last time, many businessmen and politicians in Russia were at some point involved in KGB or some other agency, because thats how it was back then in Soviet Union. Even Hungarian and Latvian government leaders were frigging involved at one point. In Poland even they are making political scandals against current politicians who were once members of KGB. SO WHAT? Its ancient history. You guys need to get over it. If Putin wanted Cold War or Soviet Union, he would have never pushed for greater autonomy of Russian regions, market reform, privatization, democracy and equal trade and political relations with its neighbours. He would have been like Chavez instead. Its not the case, so please drop your aspirations for Cold War, because Russians dont want and are not aiming for it. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
You guys should just give up with this nonsense, until you present proof and undeniable evidence that Lugovoi and/or Russian government did this, |
man that's funny coming from you!! :stongue: |
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| Sunsnail |
| I think the Russians were behind 9/11. The evidence is obvious |
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| Capitalizt |
Can someone explain why those dumbasses would use polonium to kill him? Isn't it obvious that super expensive shizzle like that would be traced back to a government?
Why not use a .05 bullet and make it look like a robbery?
Putin is a silly goose. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Can someone explain why those dumbasses would use polonium to kill him? Isn't it obvious that super expensive shizzle like that would be traced back to a government?
Why not use a .05 bullet and make it look like a robbery?
Putin is a silly goose. |
to send a message?
the more pertinent question would be: who ELSE would go to this kind of trouble when, as you say, its far easier just to shoot someone?
undoubtedly the russian govt. |
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| MrSquirrel |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Can someone explain why those dumbasses would use polonium to kill him? Isn't it obvious that super expensive shizzle like that would be traced back to a government?
Why not use a .05 bullet and make it look like a robbery?
Putin is a silly goose. |
Arrogance.
It is a much bigger deterrent to people who would go against someone who is willing to murder someone in a fashion that makes it patently obvious that it was not a coincidence as an example of their power.
MrS |
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| HardTranceProd |
| quote: | Originally posted by Capitalizt
Can someone explain why those dumbasses would use polonium to kill him? |
They used it because they didn't think it would discovered so quickly and efficienty by Britain. And by the time it COULD be discovered, all traces would have evaporated.
The British found that it was polonium almost by accident. It's a very difficult substance to identify (while still present).
Why does this have to be repeated over and over again? Didn't you read any articles in the press about how hard polonium is to ID?
Now my question: Did you read the two articles that I posted in this thread? They really mention some facts that you don't hear everyday in the media. |
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| Magnetonium |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrSquirrel
Arrogance.
It is a much bigger deterrent to people who would go against someone who is willing to murder someone in a fashion that makes it patently obvious that it was not a coincidence as an example of their power.
MrS |
Yeahhh ... Russia using polonium ... VERY POWERFUL ... nuke those bastards!!! Hahaha ...
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
to send a message?
the more pertinent question would be: who ELSE would go to this kind of trouble when, as you say, its far easier just to shoot someone?
undoubtedly the russian govt. |
Kinda funny reading this coming from you ... I thought you didnt believe in conspiracies. Would be nice if you provided some proof ... Somehow you believe that Russians are behind everything, the Russian secret plan to take over the world ...
Whomever poisoined Litvinenko chose polonium-210 intentionally because only specific government and military agencies have it, its not public, just like uranium. So it would be obvious who is to blame here ... qui bono ...
25 Million os a lot of money for someone who posed no threat to the Russian government. Yes, a bullet to the head, an accident or something similar would have totally not been linked to Russian government.
If polonium-210 was so hard to trace, then how come weeks after Litvinenko's death its traces were still found long after Lugovoi allegedly visited the places that were heavily sprayed with polonium-210? Seriously, where's the common sense here? Are you guys really naive to suggest that Lugovoi sprayed all places he visited? Thats a HUGE amount of polonium-210 to sneak across the airplane. And through SEVERAL countries across Europe (including Germany). And the untracebility of polonium-210 has been clearly smashed, so there goes that argument. It was confirmed that poloninum-210 killed Litvinenko at his death, over 3 WEEKS after he was poisoned. Pretty dam hidden poison it seems, so hidden its traces were STILL present in so many places. And Lugovoi was very happy to spray (mark his territory) to some of the public places he visited. How come then if he was 'heavily leaking' polonium-210, how come the poison wasnt discovered at his hotel, and some other places he visited, but only found in key remote places? How come polonium-210 was discovered in Berezovsky's offices, in offices in Germany of other businessmen, in British Embassy in Moscow, etc? Hmmmmmmmmm .... the trail is quite a broken one. Lugovoi it seems was choosing where he wanted to spray polonium, in remote places only, and not in all places he visited. But I thought he only gave some poison for Litvinenko to drink? Hmmmmm ....
EDIT: POISON DISCOVERED 'ALMOST' BY ACCIDENT? Are you insane? Have you read health books? Do you know what the signs of RADIATION poisoning are? Well, do some homework. It was CLEAR that Litvinenko was POISONED WITH A RADIOACTIVE SUBSTANCE from the beginning. However, polonium-210 is not a common substance, so it wasnt easy to determine what it was until after his death, when coronary report was concluded, and all observations were done. Throwing up, losing all body hair, vomiting, immune system failing, organs failing, etc. are just some of the signs of radiation. And the doctors EASILY figured that out, so it wasnt that hard to figurte out he WAS MURDERED, not just a flu illness. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by Magnetonium
Kinda funny reading this coming from you ... I thought you didnt believe in conspiracies. Would be nice if you provided some proof ... Somehow you believe that Russians are behind everything, the Russian secret plan to take over the world ... |
no, i just dont believe in the conspiracies that you bang on about. i know all government's are known for their often violent espionage. that's just common knowledge.
interesting for you to suddenly do the proof argument. funny funny funny!!
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Whomever poisoined Litvinenko chose polonium-210 intentionally because only specific government and military agencies have it, its not public, just like uranium. So it would be obvious who is to blame here ... qui bono ... |
why on earth would they need to "blame" anyone for it? you give us a more likely candidate than the russian government and maybe we'll start listening.
russians had motive, means, capability. i find it weird that you would dismiss the arguments against russia based on nothing at all. |
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