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Would you give up liberty to be secure?
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ogvh5150
Would you give up liberty to be secure?

or in synonymic terms:

Would you give up liberty to be safe?

If given a choice would you give these or others up:

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

I have to make definitions to the words safe and secure:

Secure in this sense would mean to be safe from harm.

Where the founding fathers used the terms of secure or security it would mean to safeguard liberty from erosion or elimination.

But I see that there are some on this forum that can read what I meant so the question remains as it stands.

What is liberty when you look at the phrase "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"?

Just what is liberty?

Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.
The Federalist Papers


They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
Benjamin Franklin


An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good. It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.
The Federalist Papers


In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights
The Federalist Papers


It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt
John Philpot Curran
Speech upon the Right of Election 1790


Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves
Abraham Lincoln


I prefer liberty with danger than peace with slavery
Jean-Jacques Rousseau


In the meantime I have to practice this phrase in german if I ever get stopped by NYPD:

Ihre papiere gefallen.



Meet Deborah Davis. She's a 50 year-old mother of four who lives and works in Denver, Colorado. Her kids are all grown-up: her middle son is a soldier fighting in Iraq. She leads an ordinary, middle class life. You probably never would have heard of Deb Davis if it weren't for her belief in the U.S. Constitution.
One morning in late September 2005, Deb was riding the public bus to work. She was minding her own business, reading a book and planning for work, when a security guard got on this public bus and demanded that every passenger show their ID. Deb, having done nothing wrong, declined. The guard called in federal cops, and she was arrested and charged with federal criminal misdemeanors after refusing to show ID on demand.
On the 9th of December 2005, Deborah Davis will be arraigned in U.S. District Court in a case that will determine whether Deb and the rest of us live in a free society, or in a country where we must show "papers" whenever a cop demands them.

Next Stop: Big Brother
Groundhog Boy
Oooh, I get to use my favorite Ben Franklin quote again -
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Arbiter
I wouldn't give up anything to be secure. In fact, I'd prefer not to be secure.
Lover Boy
quote:
Originally posted by Groundhog Boy
Oooh, I get to use my favorite Ben Franklin quote again -
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."


Not the quote Civ IV lists it at, but I thought the same thing.
Groundhog Boy
quote:
Originally posted by Lover Boy
Not the quote Civ IV lists it at, but I thought the same thing.

Yeah, I tried to get the exact quote because I knew the gist. Every hit when I googled a couple of words was different.

It's sad how many people don't really feel this way in today's America. Just look at the polls (and the way the country voted in 2004)
St_Andrew
quote:
Originally posted by Arbiter
I wouldn't give up anything to be secure. In fact, I'd prefer not to be secure.


Not that I disagree that libertries are way more important than security and no liberties should be given up for security, but really, why would you actually want to be not safe? :p
Renegade
There are no securities we could give up that would ensure our absolute protection anyway. I'd always rather be free and vunerable than trapped and safe.

quote:
Originally posted by St_Andrew
why would you actually want to be not safe? :p


"Life begins on the other side of despair." - Jean-Paul Sartre

A bit of tumult (existential or otherwise) is good for you. It is better to have known fear than to have known only comfortable numbness...
The Greek
Excellent quotations. I'm sure zoo animals live longer too but would you ever want live your life in a cage in order to ensure a lion or a wolf doesn't eat you? You can see what I mean. You can't take away the laws that make this country what it is. Then "the terrorists REALLY DO win."
Synthesia
quote:
Originally posted by St_Andrew
Not that I disagree that libertries are way more important than security and no liberties should be given up for security, but really, why would you actually want to be not safe? :p


Thought #1: Just because one would choose liberty doesn't mean that you do not want to be safe. :)

Thought #2: And then again, one will never have 100% liberty.

Thought #3: Even if we would give up liberty for 'security' how much securer are we really? Not very much I believe...perhaps even less than if we didn't...if a (governamental) organisation will want to know anything about you they will if we have to give up liberties to feel a false sense of security.
Lover Boy
100% liberty if freedom, which can never be allowed. I can deal with that, what I can't deal with is being started at by coppers every time I walk on the street (& im not a dodgy person, they do it 2 every1 now).

Arbiter
quote:
Originally posted by St_Andrew
Not that I disagree that libertries are way more important than security and no liberties should be given up for security, but really, why would you actually want to be not safe? :p


Danger is a valuable experience - it is passionate and exhilarating, affirming the value of life. It builds strength and character, while those cowering in their shell of "safety" only grow weaker and more stagnant.

Safety is nothing more than a guarantee of the preservation of a life half-lived. A short but full life is infinitely a better use of the opportunity than a long but hollow one.
ogvh5150
quote:
Originally posted by Lover Boy
100% liberty if freedom, which can never be allowed. I can deal with that, what I can't deal with is being started at by coppers every time I walk on the street (& im not a dodgy person, they do it 2 every1 now).


Unless you're the color blue (police) they won't trust you.
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