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Would you give up liberty to be secure? (pg. 2)
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Psy-T
only under the rules of my own making, which is to say... no.
St_Andrew
quote:
Originally posted by Arbiter
Danger is a valuable experience - it is passionate and exhilarating, affirming the value of life. It builds strength and character, while those cowering in their shell of "safety" only grow weaker and more stagnant.

Safety is nothing more than a guarantee of the preservation of a life half-lived. A short but full life is infinitely a better use of the opportunity than a long but hollow one.


I get your point - and I agree.
ali92
NEVER!!!
ali92
quote:
Originally posted by Lover Boy
Not the quote Civ IV lists it at, but I thought the same thing.
What's the official quote?
Trancer-X
quote:
Originally posted by ali92
What's the official quote?


quote:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin






quote:
Freedom is not a gift bestowed upon us by other men, but a right that belongs to us by the laws of God and nature.

- Benjamin Franklin


quote:
This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins.

- Benjamin Franklin



quote:
Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freedom of speech.

- Benjamin Franklin




quote:
When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.

- Benjamin Franklin



quote:
Only virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

- Benjamin Franklin
Ek0nomik
quote:
Originally posted by Lover Boy
100% liberty if freedom, which can never be allowed. I can deal with that, what I can't deal with is being started at by coppers every time I walk on the street (& im not a dodgy person, they do it 2 every1 now).


Started at by coppers?

If you mean what I think you do, their just doing their job.
ogvh5150
So I guess their doing their job when they bash a 50 year old grandmother upside the skull for refusing to leave a peaceful protest.

In other news...

Addition to thread post:

What is liberty when you look at the phrase "nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"?

Just what is liberty?

In the meantime I have to practice this phrase in german if I ever get stopped by NYPD:
Ihre papiere gefallen.



Meet Deborah Davis. She's a 50 year-old mother of four who lives and works in Denver, Colorado. Her kids are all grown-up: her middle son is a soldier fighting in Iraq. She leads an ordinary, middle class life. You probably never would have heard of Deb Davis if it weren't for her belief in the U.S. Constitution.
One morning in late September 2005, Deb was riding the public bus to work. She was minding her own business, reading a book and planning for work, when a security guard got on this public bus and demanded that every passenger show their ID. Deb, having done nothing wrong, declined. The guard called in federal cops, and she was arrested and charged with federal criminal misdemeanors after refusing to show ID on demand.
On the 9th of December 2005, Deborah Davis will be arraigned in U.S. District Court in a case that will determine whether Deb and the rest of us live in a free society, or in a country where we must show "papers" whenever a cop demands them.

Next Stop: Big Brother
Sunsnail
I voted no. Freedom over security
occrider
This is a loaded question. When the founders drafted the concept of freedom and security into the constitution they were implying freedom and security from government. Therefore the implication that the "freedoms" granted by the constitution have an inverse relationship with "security" in any way is simply absurd.
Aiwendil
quote:
Originally posted by Arbiter
Danger is a valuable experience - it is passionate and exhilarating, affirming the value of life. It builds strength and character, while those cowering in their shell of "safety" only grow weaker and more stagnant.

Safety is nothing more than a guarantee of the preservation of a life half-lived. A short but full life is infinitely a better use of the opportunity than a long but hollow one.


Lesson Star Trek taught us #141

The Greek
Did the Deborah Davis story get any media attention? I dont rememebr hearing anything about that. That is ridiculous. Abd, a security guard? Who the F*** is this guy to get on a bus asking for id? I would have said "Let me see YOUR id ASS****"
ogvh5150
quote:
Originally posted by occrider
This is a loaded question. When the founders drafted the concept of freedom and security into the constitution they were implying freedom and security from government. Therefore the implication that the "freedoms" granted by the constitution have an inverse relationship with "security" in any way is simply absurd.


This is a loaded question:

Do you still beat your wife, yes or no?

People understood the question as it stands. But since you missed the quote:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety
Benjamin Franklin


So to be secure in that question means to be safe. And in this case it means if you would feel safe to let go of your liberties would you do so?

Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.
The Federalist Papers


An enlightened zeal for the energy and efficiency of government will be stigmatized as the offspring of a temper fond of despotic power and hostile to the principles of liberty. An over-scrupulous jealousy of danger to the rights of the people, which is more commonly the fault of the head than of the heart, will be represented as mere pretense and artifice, the stale bait for popularity at the expense of the public good. It will be forgotten, on the one hand, that jealousy is the usual concomitant of love, and that the noble enthusiasm of liberty is apt to be infected with a spirit of narrow and illiberal distrust. On the other hand, it will be equally forgotten that the vigor of government is essential to the security of liberty; that, in the contemplation of a sound and well-informed judgment, their interest can never be separated; and that a dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants.
The Federalist Papers


In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights
The Federalist Papers


It is the common fate of the indolent to see their rights become a prey to the active. The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt
John Philpot Curran
Speech upon the Right of Election 1790


Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves
Abraham Lincoln


I prefer liberty with danger than peace with slavery
Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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