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| VanFleet |
| This is a suggestion to anyone disputing the Swift Vets, and asking where Bush was while Kerry was in Vietnam. The standard answer should be that Bush was in Cambodia. When they say he wasnt, ask them to prove it. Tell them that John Kerry saw him there. He looked up from his boat and saw Bush waving at him from his F-102. If they dont believe it, tell them Kerry can prove it when he RELEASES HIS RECORDS. |
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| MisterOpus1 |
| quote: | Originally posted by VanFleet
This is a suggestion to anyone disputing the Swift Vets, and asking where Bush was while Kerry was in Vietnam. The standard answer should be that Bush was in Cambodia. When they say he wasnt, ask them to prove it. Tell them that John Kerry saw him there. He looked up from his boat and saw Bush waving at him from his F-102. If they dont believe it, tell them Kerry can prove it when he RELEASES HIS RECORDS. |
Why would his records yet to be released indicate where his position was at that time? Were there records even recorded during 1968 around Christmas time that would demonstrate the exactness of Kerry's boat position?
This is seemingly running close to a Red Herring to me.
From http://www.eriposte.com/media/liars_inc/swiftboat.htm:
| quote: | SBV CLAIM ON KERRY AND CAMBODIA
[Fox News report, via Campaign Desk]: A new book called "Unfit for Command" (search) raises questions about Kerry's claims that he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve 1968 at a time when the U.S. government was insisting that there was no American military presence in that country.
[SBV, via Kevin Drum]: All the living commanders in Kerry’s chain of command . . . deny that Kerry was ever ordered to Cambodia.
FACT
Just because the U.S. Government did not announce a formal military presence in Cambodia during the Vietnam-era does not mean there were no American military personnel inside Cambodia at that time. It's not as if Nixon and Johnson were the pinnacles of truth!
Moreover, do you want a believe a bunch of demonstrated liars? Especially when past news articles have reported Kerry being in Cambodia?
The bottomline is that Kerry was very close to the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve of 1968 and he was reported to have been inside Cambodia in January and February of 1969. No one can prove that he was NOT across the Cambodian border on Christmas night in 1968.
REFERENCES
Thomas Lang, Campaign Desk:
As Fox sees it, that 36-year-old government denial casts doubt on Kerry's stated remembrances. But given the mudded history of Vietnam, an official government stance should hardly translate into certain fact -- especially now that it's known that the U.S. government conducted numerous secret operations throughout Cambodia during the Vietnam War as early as 1967 (as PBS's "Frontline," among myriad others, has reported).
John Gonzales, Dallas Observer (bold text is eRiposte emphasis):
In 1986, Kerry made a speech on the Senate floor urging then-President Ronald Reagan not to allow the United States to aid the Nicaraguan Contras, likening it to the slippery slope that daunted American forces in Vietnam. "Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia."
The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth point to that speech as an example of what they allege became Kerry's pattern of behavior following the war – to distort and twist the facts to suit his purposes.
...
There were, of course, covert operations that the government has since acknowledged – operations that sent American soldiers to illegally infiltrate Cambodia and other neighboring countries. The problem, SBVT contends, is that Kerry wasn't part of any of them.
...
Jim Wasser disagrees. He was a radarman who was second in command under Kerry on PCF-44 and is now affiliated with his campaign as part of Veterans for Kerry. Wasser, who now lives in Illinois, says that it would be unusual for an enlisted gunner's mate to specifically know the boat's position at any given time.
"I had to go on [Fox News show] Hannity & Colmes with him, and even though he's wrong, and I truly believe that, he's my brother, and veterans should never say anything about each other," Wasser says of Gardner. "[Swift Boat Veterans for Truth] say they're about the truth; that's a falsehood.
"On Christmas in 1968, we were close [to Cambodia]. I don't know exactly where we were. I didn't have the chart. It was easy to get turned around with all the rivers around there. But I'll say this: We were the farthest inland that night. I know that for sure."
Atrios (Eschaton):
From Frontline
By 1967, the North Vietnamese Army and the Viet Cong were operating along Cambodia's border with South Vietnam, with Sihanouk's approval. The United States and South Vietnam responded with cross-border operations, which Sihanouk publicly protested.
Atrios (Eschaton):
New York Times:
12/13/67:
..Government sources acknowledged that the Administration was considering giving field commanders in South Vietnam authority for "hot pursuit" into the country."
...The present interpretation of the policy of self-defense generally bars hot pursuit, but in practice American commanders have engaged in it on occasion during the heat of battle."
12/12/67:
...a plan to this effect, allowing for follow-up by American forces, was "under active consideration..." ..."the decision to move into Cambodia was all but made."
11/16/68:
Since last July Cambodia has been holding eleven American crewmen from an Army river supply vessel that strayed inadvertently into Cambodian territory.
...Cambodia has finally recognized the two-sided nature of the border incidents and has asked the International Control Commission to investigate the Communist incursions that provoked allied attacks across the border."
1/22/68:
Cambodia said today that equipment was abandoned on the battlefield by the "American-South Vietnamese" force that, Cambodia maintains, crossed into her territory Thursday....
...He said that the abandoned items included red scarves worn by paratroop commandos, a United States officer's helmet, weapons, and radio sets.
Cambodia regularly charged that forces attacked targets, military and civilian, in their territory throughout this time period. I'll leave it to contemporary scholars to unravel the truth/lack of truth of those claims. But, it's quite clear that at this time the US was in possession of quite a bit of intelligence about North Vietnamese troop positions and strongholds in Cambodia which would have been difficult to derive without some cross-border surveillance.
Kevin Drum, Political Animal:
In 1979 Kerry wrote a letter to the Boston Herald in which he said, "I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas."
In 1986 Kerry gave a speech in the Senate in which he said he spent Christmas Day of 1968 "sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia."
In 1992, an AP story about missing POWs filled in further details: "One of the missions, which Kerry, at the time, was ordered not to discuss, involved taking CIA operatives into Cambodia to search for enemy enclaves."
In 2000, US News & World Report ran a brief piece that said Kerry "made his first forays into Cambodia during the Vietnam War as a Navy lieutenant on clandestine missions to deliver weapons to anticommunist forces."
In 2003, the Washington Post ran a story about Kerry in which he explained that he carries around an old hat in his briefcase:
"My good luck hat," Kerry said, happy to see it. "Given to me by a CIA guy as we went in for a special mission in Cambodia."
Now, it's not immediately clear to me why any of this is "pure fantasy." Kerry certainly operated in the area of the Cambodian border in late 1968, Americans were definitely making border incursions at the time, and the CIA certainly had a lot of people in Vietnam in 1968. That doesn't mean Kerry's story is true, but it's certainly plausible.
The serious evidence against Kerry seems to consist of two things. First, the Swift Vets group claims that "All the living commanders in Kerry’s chain of command . . . deny that Kerry was ever ordered to Cambodia." Second, both Douglas Brinkley's biography of Kerry and Kerry's war journal mention only that he was near the Cambodian border on Christmas Eve, not across it. (Although the journal entry ends with a sarcastic message to his superiors: "Merry Christmas from the most inland Market Time unit" — at a minimum a reference to being right on top of the Cambodian border. Then: "You hope that they'll court marshal you or something because that would make sense" — possibly a reference to crossing the border.)
Conclusions? Beats me. Kerry has mentioned this story several times, so it's not a slip of the tongue. And it's plausible on its surface. Contrariwise, the evidence against him is pretty thin: not much more than the fact that no one else has verified it — and keep in mind that the Swift Vets guys are not exactly disinterested witnesses in this matter. What's more, since there is exactly zero in the way of documentary evidence one way or the other, it seems unlikely that this little teapot-sized tempest will ever be conclusively resolved. Which, I suppose, suits Kerry's detractors just fine.
eRiposte comments: Unlike Kevin's conclusions ("beats me"), it is plainly obvious that there is sufficient evidence over a long time now that Kerry has been in Cambodia. Also, if Kerry was a few miles across the Cambodian border he could very well have been at the border or outside the border on the same day! This is unsurprising, ridiculous crap from the "Swift Vets" and their apologists and enablers on the Right.
Kevin Drum (Political Animal):
KERRY IN CAMBODIA....Instapundit links today to a piece in the Telegraph that quotes John Kerry biographer Douglas Brinkley about the "Christmas in Cambodia" kerfuffle:
"On Christmas Eve he was near Cambodia; he was around 50 miles from the Cambodian border. There's no indictment of Kerry to be made, but he was mistaken about Christmas in Cambodia," said Douglas Brinkley, who has unique access to the candidate's wartime journals.
....He said: "Kerry went into Cambodian waters three or four times in January and February 1969 on clandestine missions. He had a run dropping off US Navy Seals, Green Berets and CIA guys." The missions were not armed attacks on Cambodia, said Mr Brinkley, who did not include the clandestine missions in his wartime biography of Mr Kerry, Tour of Duty.
"He was a ferry master, a drop-off guy, but it was dangerous as hell. Kerry carries a hat he was given by one CIA operative. In a part of his journals which I didn't use he writes about discussions with CIA guys he was dropping off."
So let me get this straight. Kerry did go to Cambodia — even though that was supposedly impossible, he did take CIA guys in — even though that was supposedly absurd, and he did get a hat from one of them — even though that was supposedly a sign of mental instability. The extent of Kerry's malfeasance is that instead of doing it in December, he actually did it in January and February.
Considering that he's mentioned this story only twice, most recently 18 years ago, and it turns out that his only crime is to have tarted it up with a bit of holiday pathos, I think I'll pass on following it any further down the Swift Vets rabbit hole. But thanks to everyone who displayed their deep unseriousness about this election by participating in this smear. It will be remembered. |
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