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Patriotism/nationalism
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| trancaholic |
Just got to thinking:
- Are there any differences between a patriot and a nationalist?
- Are there any positive effects of patriotism?
My answers would be "no" and "no". Anyone with better and deeper answers? |
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| BadBadNeil |
Maybe its just me but I think of Patriotism as a country coming together in a time of need or during a troubling time such as a disaster.
I think of Nationalism as the loving of your country and its beliefs and ideals just because you are a part of the country. I guess you could also call it Pride of Country. |
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| occrider |
Well here's what I said with respect to this topic a few months back:
patriotism
\Pa"tri*ot*ism\, n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.] Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.
Love and devotion to the welfare of one's country implies neither blind disobedience or being proud about being born in a particular place. It is possible to love your country and disagree with your countries actions, and yet still be patriotic as long as your goal is to achieve a better nation.
This guy says it better than me although I might disagree with a minor point or two:
| quote: | The True Meaning of Patriotism
by Mark Hofer, Broadside Magazine and Matt Hofer, Carolina Review
Events on and since September 11th have caused many to respond. Some have responded by placing American flags in front of their homes or on their cars. Others have protested until they got sore throats. Some have been called unpatriotic in their actions. However, this accusation is often used too loosely and degrades the potency of the accusation to those who deserve it. To be fair to those accusing and those accused of being unpatriotic it is essential to know what patriotism actually is.
The base of the word "patriotism" comes from the Latin word patria, meaning fatherland or homeland. The suffix "-ism" is Greek meaning belief in, practice of, or condition of. The literal definition is then belief in one's country. But patriotism goes beyond that definition. We all believe in France as a country, but are not necessarily French patriots. A better definition, and the one offered by Merriam-Webster Online, is "one who loves his or her country and supports its authority and interests."
Those who are saying that something is unpatriotic because it goes against government are simplistic. As everyone well knows, the government is not always correct in its decisions. Japanese internment camps, for example, were one of the American government's mistakes during World War II. 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry were forcefully and indiscriminately placed in these camps to cut down on the number of Japanese spies in the United States. Although upheld by the Supreme Court and considered an issue of national security, history has proven any form of concentration camps atrocious.
Conversely, radicals who declare that democracy demands dissent are merely trying to justify their own senseless actions. Democracy demands dialogue and debate, not dissent, to encourage both sides of any issue to work toward the best, most developed conclusions. When we as a nation break into purely contradictory factions, then the constructive nature of the debate crumbles.
Many have declared themselves patriotic for simply expressing rights reaffirmed by the United States Constitution. However, expressing rights is not necessarily patriotic or constructive. For example, burning the US flag is certainly unpatriotic, though the right to do so is guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
President Ronald Reagan made his views on what patriotism is clear in his Farewell Address on January 20, 1989.
"An informed patriotism is what we want. And are we doing a good enough job teaching our children what America is and what she represents in the long history of the world? Those of us who are over 35 or so years of age grew up in a different America. We were taught, very directly, what it means to be an American. And we absorbed, almost in the air, a love of country and an appreciation of its institutions. If you didn't get these things from your family you got them from the neighborhood, from the father down the street who fought in Korea or the family who lost someone at Anzio. Or you could get a sense of patriotism from school. And if all else failed you could get a sense of patriotism from the popular culture. The movies celebrated democratic values and implicitly reinforced the idea that America was special. TV was like that, too, through the mid-sixties."
Patriotism to him meant "a love of country and an appreciation of its institutions." This love and appreciation came from learning the history of our country, learning the democratic values for which so many have fought and died here and around the world. This was not the blind faith in the government or blind opposition to the government. This patriotism was the informed love and appreciation for the government. Fighting to change the country is patriotic, but you must know why you are changing it and why the new way is better.
What a shame it is that some have come to believe that patriotism is blind, unhealthy, or even vile. It is also shameful how patriotism has been oversimplified by some to mean unquestioning support for the government, which then allows radicals to rail patriots for any and all government institutions with which they disagree. Patriots Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson found themselves on opposing sides on almost all the big issues of their time, but today neither is more a patriot than the other. In the light of September 11th, patriotism should still be viewed through the seasoned lens of history.
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Oops ... yes forgot you asked for nationalism as well. Well basically nationalism covers the same basic tenants as patriotism. However there is one key difference. Patriotism can exist alone, nationalism requires other nations to reference. MrSquirell summed it up quite well with his definition, nationalism implies not only love but loyalty and obedience as well. Furthermore, nationalism adopts the doctrine that your national culture and interests are superior to any other. Therefore those who say America is the greatest country in the world (assuming this isn't a proven fact somewhere somehow) are exhibiting nationalistic tendencies. Those who label dissent as being unpatriotic are exhibiting nationalistic tendencies, sound familiar?
If you're confused by the references, i just cut and pasted my response from this thread:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...sm&pagenumber=2 |
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| tathi |
| don't forget jingoism :) |
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| trancaholic |
| Thanks occrider...and thanks for not flaming me to hell for not using the search button. :o |
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| Zild |
| I'd just like to say that most people that like to view themselves as patriots are nothing but mindless indoctrinated scum and they deserve neither liberty nor justice, muchless freedom. |
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| George Smiley |
As I understand it (and without consulting a dictionary!) patriotism means a love of ones country and nationalism means believing your country/nationality is better, in whatever way, to other countries/nationalities
However, I have just thought of something (well why aren't you using the delete button then I hear you say!) Maybe its ok to believe your country is better than another as a lot of countries are worse than yours! Maybe nationalism means just believing you are better than other nationalities (but then that would just be xenophobia)
So, I think nationslim is a combination of patriotism and xenophobia!
Patriotism and nationalism are both buzz words (ie words that have attactched to them certain pre-constructed emotions - either positive or negative) with nationalism being a 'dirty' word (due to European nationalism and the problems it caused during the last few centuries) and patriotism a positive buzz word (like when Americans use it or other nationalities and look at it in a good light)
I think the two words, altho do have slghtly different meanings, often are the same as people just use the different words to portray different situations in either a negative way or a postive way depending on their views of the situation (eg, Hitler was obviously bad so he was nationalist, but when nationalism/patriotism becomes a useful tool to the government such as the French during the Neapolionic Wars or the Americans during this war on terror where it is neccessary to get the public on side, it is called patriotism as it is seen as a good thing)
And if that made no sense to you what so ever please accept my fullest appologies!!!
No idea whether at the moment I am a patriot or a nationalist watching Ingerland play in Euro2004 (and after the France match probly the latter!) but whatever I am these next two week will pass pretty quick! |
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| kaffeemeister |
Well when one thinks of patriotism and nationalism, it's really hard to differ between these two. I agree that both of these beliefs/ideals are really wrong :) due to the negative effects these beliefs can individuals.
These two definitions pretty much sums it up
For Patriotism
| quote: | | Commitment to the core principles and values of the nation, the values on which the nation was established. Results in knowing and holding to the Constitution and its principles and limits. Tends to view violations of the Constitution as treason. |
Then Nationalism
| quote: | | Commitment to the nation, to the people within that nation, and to its leaders. Often results in people following a leader with whom they may not agree on important issues for the sake of unity. Produces a unified voice, often at the cost of honest debate. Tends to view disagreement with the majority as ¡§bad,¡¨ and maybe even as treason. |
Positive effects of nationalism/patriotism is only effect in terms of when the nation is down/suffereing from economic depression etc...
It sort of bonds the collective emotions of the nation together i reckon... Else... I don't think Patriotism/Nationalism particularly the latter serves humans a great deal.
Nationalism tends to happen in an autocratic society,tends to happen more in a socialistic society... Nationalism has a great record of making people from that particular nation do stupid things without consultating to their logics, because the only thing in their minds is "I just do it because the guy at the top told me to" or "I do it for my country, screw people from other countries/races/religions".
You don't need to look further than half an century ago to see extreme cases of what i call as mindless nationalistic drones, f.e. The Japaneseand Nazi Germany during World War two. I think an overloading sense of patriotism/ignorance/passion leads to negative nationalistic emotions. |
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| MrSquirrel |
See the thread that occrider the wise pasted a link to for my "response".
It won't have changed and I am too damn lazy to blabber on and wax philosophical today hehe.
MrS |
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| smokeape |
Wow, didn't recognize him. Occrider's got a new look.
I'm a patriot as well. And don't think us southerners don't support the US! More than half of the warfighters are based down here.
:D
[[[smoke]]]
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| nic01445 |
| quote: | Originally posted by smokeape
Wow, didn't recognize him. Occrider's got a new look.
I'm a patriot as well. And don't think us southerners don't support the US! More than half of the warfighters are based down here.
:D
[[[smoke]]]
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We're always up for killing ******s and towlheads, am I right? |
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| TuanAnh213 |
| quote: | Originally posted by nic01445
We're always up for killing ******s and towlheads, am I right? |
don't forget you hate asians too |
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