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| LiquidX |
| quote: | Originally posted by DjSway
It's not "the right to critize it", this is about having the freedom to argue about something that is part of the US history. Where do you cross the line between freedom and customs? I know the government (in most cases) try to seperate itself from religion. For example, here in a LA, there was this case about removing the cross from the LA city's emblem. Which resulted in the removal of that cross symbol. Anyways, in this case, I know the word "God" is a strong religious statment, however, I do interprete it has "any" God. To some, this means one God only.
I still think that since this pledge is not forced upon students, at least by law, it shouldn't be changed. If people think that this is brain washing, then I pitty the fool who is easily brainwashed. |
I totally agree with you. Why change the customs of something that this country was basically built upon.. is like changing the whole white house structure, because it does not fit modern times structures.. and it bothers the people that walk outside to watch such an old greek like structure..... I know the analogy is not quite the same, really.. but I hope you people know where Im getting at. Jeezz.. leave history and those customs by itself, just respect it, learn and live to respect... you can say the whole pledge and not say the word god.. how can it bother you much? |
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| DaveSZ |
I remember having to say this pledge when I was younger, but by 10 or 11 I simply didn't say anything during the “pledge.”
In the higher grades we no longer said the pledge.
I don't think of it as a big problem either way, and I tend to think of it in the same terms of having "God" on our money.
I also remember my kindergarten teacher telling us to pray during the first Gulf War that not many people would be killed.
Also one of my teachers in 6th grade had posters mentioning Jesus on his wall, but I let it slide because I liked him.
And there were some Gideons, or Amish, or Fundies, handing out Bibles outside my secondary school on several occasions.
That's the closest I had seen to an endorsement of religion in my entire public school career, so I don’t know how that would compare to Europe, Mexico, or Canada for example.
In Texas though the Fundies took over the State legislature, so who knows what kind of crazy they’ve passed by now.
I suspect anything radical would be thrown out in court. |
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| mixinmusic |
| In the UK it is compulsory for every school to have one daily collective act of Christian worship but all these immigrants now are causing problems.... I wish we didnt have immigrants and then there wouldnt be all this and everyone would just get on..... |
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| djsubsonik |
i find it amazing how some1 can try to take out something our country was founded on..
when the pilgrims came here in the 1600s they came for religious freedom and guess what, they were Christians .. they believed in God... and so did every single on of the founding fathers... so i cant stand that people have went to the extent to separate church and state, and now are trying to modify our pledge of allegiance... the nation was founded by people who believed in God.. suck it up |
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| Dervish |
| quote: | Originally posted by mixinmusic
In the UK it is compulsory for every school to have one daily collective act of Christian worship |
Is it? We never I don't think... Had assemblys every so often when we sang stuff and had Sally Army people speak and stuff.
Only time in High School was when we got handed out these little red bibles in groups of 5 with the Rector and a former rector (who was a god squad type). He stared preaching at us. I couldn't help myself and started pissing myself laughing then everyone else did. Did not go down well.... didn't go down well atall.....:nervous: he knew it was me and this didn't look good laughing in his predecessor's face :haha: |
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| Dervish |
| quote: | Originally posted by djsubsonik
i find it amazing how some1 can try to take out something our country was founded on..
when the pilgrims came here in the 1600s they came for religious freedom and guess what, they were Christians .. they believed in God... and so did every single on of the founding fathers... so i cant stand that people have went to the extent to separate church and state, and now are trying to modify our pledge of allegiance... the nation was founded by people who believed in God.. suck it up |
Ahh yes but if the people who founded your nation had the same idea "stick to the rules they are always right... change is bad" then your country wouldn't be the place it is now would it? |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by DaveSZ
That's the closest I had seen to an endorsement of religion in my entire public school career, so I don’t know how that would compare to Europe, Mexico, or Canada for example. |
Seems like you were less exposed to religion than I was at school then. At kindergarten here we were forced (yes forced - bloody Lutherans!) to say prayers pretty much before we did anything. Neither of my parents are religious, so I didn't even know what this "God" was meant to be when they asked me to lead in prayer. :-/
At primary school here they'd always let proselytisers from the local church in to speak to us. There's something very wrong about taking a couple hours out of the weekly syllabus to let idiots indoctrinate 5 and 6 year olds with their very particular fire and brimstone religion (and that's how it was - none of this liberal Christian crap - it was fear and threats all the way. One of my friends in another class was traumatised when this weird, weird woman told him that he was going to burn in hell because he didn't pray at night. His parents understandably complained though, and she never came back).
When I lived in England we'd have to pray at the start and the end of every school day and sing hymns at assembly at the primary school there. Same deal as with Australia as well: they had no problem with letting protestant nut-jobs in to indoctrinate the children on school time (wonder if they'd let an atheist - or a Muslim - go in to do the same thing?). These are all state-schools I'm talking about as well, btw. So much for separation between church and state, huh? :rolleyes:
And well, I went to an Anglican high-school so lots of hymns and prayers there as well understandably. Anglicanism is a pretty liberal facet of Christianity, so I never had any specific problems there (except when the esteemed reverend dragged me up during Religious Education class - more accurately described as Christian Apologetics class - and tried to prove that atheists don't exist after I raised an objection to something he said). No-one I knew at the school was in any way religious though, so no-one took any of it particularly seriously.
So from the sounds of it, there's a bigger overlap between religion and state schools in Australia and England (from my experiences anyway) than Texas from what you've described. That's a little disconcerting... :-/ |
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| Renegade |
| quote: | Originally posted by djsubsonik
they believed in God... and so did every single on of the founding fathers... |
No they didn't. Not only were most of the founding fathers indifferent to religion (lots of deists, pantheists and agnostics in there - true products of the emerging European enlightenment) some - like Thomas Jefferson - were openly hostile to Christian beliefs. Hence, the doctrine of separating church and state.
| quote: | | so i cant stand that people have went to the extent to separate church and state, and now are trying to modify our pledge of allegiance... |
Er, the pledge has already been modified - by the McCarthyites in the 50s. They were the ones that added words "under God" to the pledge to distinguish the US from the godless commies. Striking "under God" from the pledge would just be restoring it to its original form. |
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