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Forget Sharon ... it looks like Arafat is the main hold up against peace
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| occrider |
Sources: Arafat approaching other PM candidates
Monday, April 21, 2003 Posted: 12:19 PM EDT (1619 GMT)
RAMALLAH, West Bank (CNN) -- Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat is starting to approach other candidates about becoming prime minister after failing to agree so far with Prime Minister-Designate Mahmoud Abbas on a list of new Cabinet members, Palestinian sources said Monday.
Arafat and Abbas are engaged in a power struggle, with the Palestinian Authority president seeking to retain as much control as he can, sources told CNN. Abbas -- commonly known as Abu Mazen -- has said he wants genuine authority in the job.
A senior U.S. State Department official said that Secretary of State Colin Powell spoke Monday with European Foreign policy chief Javier Solana and other officials in the region in recent days in an effort to break the deadlock between Arafat and Abbas.
Powell's message: It's "time for Arafat to back off," the official said.
Senior Palestinian officials unsuccessfully worked through Sunday night to come up with a compromise proposal, but they were pessimistic that a new government will be cobbled together and approved by a Wednesday deadline, sources said.
Abbas and Arafat disagree over whether former Gaza Preventative Security Chief Mohammed Dahlan will be included in the new government.
Abbas wants Dahlan to be in charge of security, but Arafat favors Hani el-Hasan, the interior minister and an Arafat loyalist, according to the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz.
Israel Radio reported that Arafat and Abbas are considering a compromise government list that would not include Dahlan.
This proposal has 24 ministers, 14 of whom were part of the previous Cabinet, Israel Radio reported.
Israel Radio said Dahlan on Sunday offered to give up a seat in the Cabinet to help both men reach an agreement.
The report cited Palestinian sources as saying that Abbas won't hold more meetings with Arafat. Abbas, sources said, is ready to walk away from the job rather than give in to Arafat.
Under pressure from the international community to reform the Palestinian Authority, Arafat agreed to the creation of the prime minister post, giving it significant powers.
Arafat then nominated Abbas, the Palestine Liberation Organization's longtime secretary-general.
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has refused to reopen peace negotiations with Arafat.
Ra'anan Gissin, an adviser to Sharon, has said that the Israeli leader would invite Abbas to Jerusalem for talks once a new Palestinian government is sworn in.
Under Palestinian legal procedures, if a new government isn't formed by the deadline, Arafat would have to appoint someone else to come up with a Cabinet list.
The United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia have agreed to publish a Middle East "road map" for peace once a Palestinian prime minister and a new government take office.
According to Israel Radio, the United States, European Union and other Arab countries have been urging Arafat to show flexibility toward Abbas.
President Bush said in March he would send details of the road map to the Israelis and Palestinians as soon as the prime minister's office was filled.
Abbas was one of the first Palestinian leaders to make contact with Israeli peace advocates.
According to the PLO, Abbas was a signatory of the 1993 Declaration of Principles that launched the Palestinian-Israeli peace process. Two years later, Abbas signed the Interim Peace Agreement, known as the Oslo Accords, with Israel.
Why do I have a funny feeling that Arafat is going to replace Abbas with one of his lieutenants? :rolleyes:
Haha how can you blame Israel for not holding any more peace talks with Arafat when his OWN PM won't hold any more meetings with the guy!!!! |
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| DrUg_Tit0 |
| I'm just wondering how the hell Arafat got a nobel peace prize :conf: |
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| Konijn Island |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
I'm just wondering how the hell Arafat got a nobel peace prize :conf: |
that can perhaps be said for many of the Prize's recipients... |
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| DaveSaenz |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
I'm just wondering how the hell Arafat got a nobel peace prize :conf: |
Yes I feel the same. Palestinians deserve someone better to represent their cause/struggle.
Dave |
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| Cracka-X |
| quote: | Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0
I'm just wondering how the hell Arafat got a nobel peace prize :conf: |
b/c of stupid s like Rabin who wanted the prize too |
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| rupert |
Maybe Arafat has a point. Abbas the guy that Israel and America want as prime minister has promised to crackdown on the "militants".
That is all well and good for Israel getting the arabs to do its dirty work but it is a recipe for absolute disaster.
The "militant" groups are far too powerful, entrenched and popular amongst large sections of the arab population to "crackdown on"
If they tried it will probably lead to bitter outright armed conflict between the nationalist forces of the PLO and the Islamist forces of Hamas etc.
Unfortunately the Israelis have repeatedly crippled the effectiveness of the Palestinian authority to really doing anything effective anyway and the Islamist groups will win.
A conflict between the two groups will be good for Israel in the short term(every arab that kills another arab is doing the Israelis a favour) but in the long run, the Islamist groups in Palestinian society will gain absolute ascendancy.
And then Israel can probably kiss good bye to any final settlement with the palestinians. |
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| oDrori |
| quote: | Originally posted by rupert
Maybe Arafat has a point. Abbas the guy that Israel and America want as prime minister has promised to crackdown on the "militants".
That is all well and good for Israel getting the arabs to do its dirty work but it is a recipe for absolute disaster.
The "militant" groups are far too powerful, entrenched and popular amongst large sections of the arab population to "crackdown on"
If they tried it will probably lead to bitter outright armed conflict between the nationalist forces of the PLO and the Islamist forces of Hamas etc.
Unfortunately the Israelis have repeatedly crippled the effectiveness of the Palestinian authority to really doing anything effective anyway and the Islamist groups will win.
A conflict between the two groups will be good for Israel in the short term(every arab that kills another arab is doing the Israelis a favour) but in the long run, the Islamist groups in Palestinian society will gain absolute ascendancy.
And then Israel can probably kiss good bye to any final settlement with the palestinians. |
If WE should do the dirty work and all, how comes you call us nazies when we try to?
| quote: | Originally posted by Cracka-X
b/c of stupid s like Rabin who wanted the prize too |
I am curious as to why we have to curse politicians on this board... they are merely doing their job. |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by rupert
Maybe Arafat has a point. Abbas the guy that Israel and America want as prime minister has promised to crackdown on the "militants".
That is all well and good for Israel getting the arabs to do its dirty work but it is a recipe for absolute disaster.
The "militant" groups are far too powerful, entrenched and popular amongst large sections of the arab population to "crackdown on"
If they tried it will probably lead to bitter outright armed conflict between the nationalist forces of the PLO and the Islamist forces of Hamas etc.
Unfortunately the Israelis have repeatedly crippled the effectiveness of the Palestinian authority to really doing anything effective anyway and the Islamist groups will win.
A conflict between the two groups will be good for Israel in the short term(every arab that kills another arab is doing the Israelis a favour) but in the long run, the Islamist groups in Palestinian society will gain absolute ascendancy.
And then Israel can probably kiss good bye to any final settlement with the palestinians. |
************ a crackdown on the militant groups is what needs to be done in the middle east to achieve peace. If the PA wants to resort to violence then that violence should emanate from the PA and be coordinated by the PA. Not a multitude of different factions who dictate their own terms on when and how the violence shall stop. How can Israel make compromises for a peace treaty when that peace treaty is ignored my militant factions? What the PA needs to do is consolidate their position as the sole voice and body for ALL of Palestine. |
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| rupert |
| quote: | | If WE should do the dirty work and all, how comes you call us nazies when we try to? |
The original intent of Oslo accords was for the arabs to get a sniff of autonomy but with Israel having the ultimate control. From a cynical point of view this is ideal having the serfs rule each other and do all the dirty work themselves, in effect the PLO was to derive its ultimate authority from Israel not its people so in order to stay in power it had to do pretty much whatever Israel says.
That could (unlikely) have worked if Israel had wanted a genuine peace but they offered a deal that not even Arafat that spineless sell-out could accept. If he had of accepted Baraks offer he would be dead by now.
| quote: | | How can Israel make compromises for a peace treaty when that peace treaty is ignored my militant factions? |
It cant. Maybe if Israel had been genuine about Oslo maybe all of this could be avoided. Ethnic based civil wars (which the jew/arab conflict is but a minor one)are notoriously difficult to put an end to even where most of the parties genuinely want an end to conflict.
If the palestinian primeminister really tries hard to crackdown on Hamas etc (wthout negotiating with them first for some kind of brokered ceasefire amongst the factions) he will be assassinated
as an Israeli collaborator. |
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| Yoepus |
Thank you rupert. Your logic has given me many moments of sheer bliss in laughter.
| quote: | Originally posted by rupert
Maybe Arafat has a point. Abbas the guy that Israel and America want as prime minister has promised to crackdown on the "militants".
That is all well and good for Israel getting the arabs to do its dirty work but it is a recipe for absolute disaster. |
Odd, I thought your believed the mid-east was already a disaster.
| quote: | The "militant" groups are far too powerful, entrenched and popular amongst large sections of the arab population to "crackdown on"
If they tried it will probably lead to bitter outright armed conflict between the nationalist forces of the PLO and the Islamist forces of Hamas etc.
Unfortunately the Israelis have repeatedly crippled the effectiveness of the Palestinian authority to really doing anything effective anyway and the Islamist groups will win. |
The "militant groups are far to powerful" you say while admiting that "Israelis have repeatedly crippled the effectiveness of the Palestinian authority to really do anything".
So I'm curious if the PA was taking "militant" action, and it was crippled, and then the Islamic "militant" groups took "militant" action, why then have they not been crippled? I surely was under the obvious misconception that Israel is fighting "militant" of all sorts, crippling both "militants" from the PA and Islamic movments. I could have sworn they were an Equal Opprotunity "militant" destroyer, but obviously your baseless ration and argumentation has proven this thought wrong.
If Israel has the power to cripple the PA as you admitted, and they are against militants of all types especially the Islamic ones, as you admitted, why then do they not cripple the Islamic militants? You see, even you can't justify your logic. The truth is Israel has crippled ALL militants, and therefore both the PA and the Islamic factions are both equally in lesser positions then they had been previously, and previously the PA had always had more force.
| quote: | | And then Israel can probably kiss good bye to any final settlement with the palestinians. |
PLus I never thought you actually believed Israel in its efforts to obtain a final settlement before, using your line of thought for you though, what makes you then think Israel would care about kissing goodbye to any final settlement? |
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| rupert |
| quote: | | Thank you rupert. Your logic has given me many moments of sheer bliss in laughter |
I am pleased.
| quote: | | Odd, I thought your believed the mid-east was already a disaster. |
It is
| quote: | | The "militant groups are far to powerful" you say while admiting that "Israelis have repeatedly crippled the effectiveness of the Palestinian authority to really do anything". |
In terms of support from the punters on the street, yes the Islamist groups are more powerful. The PLA are widely seen as stooges by those same punters.
| quote: | | I surely was under the obvious misconception that Israel is fighting "militant" of all sorts, crippling both "militants" from the PA and Islamic movments. I could have sworn they were an Equal Opprotunity "militant" destroyer, but obviously your baseless ration and argumentation has proven this thought wrong. |
I am sure Israel has killed lots of "terrorists" of both nationalist and islamist sorts and has foiled many attacks on Israel. But your country has destroyed nothing. Kill one cell leader of Hamas and another guy will take there place. Your country hasnt addressed the fundamental reason why these people become "terrorists" and so the desire to fight is still there.
| quote: | | PLus I never thought you actually believed Israel in its efforts to obtain a final settlement before, using your line of thought for you though, what makes you then think Israel would care about kissing goodbye to any final settlement |
Most Israelis might say that they want a peace with the arabs. Some might mean it. But they dont take the real steps to achieve what they want. The first rule of successful negotiation is that the parties have to be comparatively equal. Oslo was an imposed settlement which gave Israel essentially everything that it wanted, but even that the Israeli right wingers wouldnt accept that.
Essentially at the negotiating table with Israel is on one side, the Middle Easts largest army, an arsenal of nuclear weapons and the United States who makes no excuse that it is on Israels side and on the Palestinians side of the negotiating table, who is there. No one.
They are alone. Not even the other arab countries really support them.
This so called road map to peace in the middle east will have the same outcome as Oslo. Sharon will never abandon the settlements, he might tell Uncle Sam he will dismantle them but he is lying. Israel wants to impose a settlement on the arabs which gives nothing away and obviously that will never work.
There may be a chance of some kind of lasting truce if all the settlements were disbanded but I can never see that happening. Never.
So you will say they dismantled the settlements in the Sinai. Well that was different the Sinai never formed part of Biblical israel, the settlements in the occupied territories are within the confines of biblical israel. The right wingers, the settler movement and the religious fundamentalists will never allow any serious removal of the settlements. If Sharon really did try legitimately to demolish them he will be joining Rabin very shortly afterward.
There will be war in the middle east for many years to come. |
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| DrummeRaver86 |
| quote: | Originally posted by rupert
I am pleased.
It is
In terms of support from the punters on the street, yes the Islamist groups are more powerful. The PLA are widely seen as stooges by those same punters.
I am sure Israel has killed lots of "terrorists" of both nationalist and islamist sorts and has foiled many attacks on Israel. But your country has destroyed nothing. Kill one cell leader of Hamas and another guy will take there place. Your country hasnt addressed the fundamental reason why these people become "terrorists" and so the desire to fight is still there.
Most Israelis might say that they want a peace with the arabs. Some might mean it. But they dont take the real steps to achieve what they want. The first rule of successful negotiation is that the parties have to be comparatively equal. Oslo was an imposed settlement which gave Israel essentially everything that it wanted, but even that the Israeli right wingers wouldnt accept that.
Essentially at the negotiating table with Israel is on one side, the Middle Easts largest army, an arsenal of nuclear weapons and the United States who makes no excuse that it is on Israels side and on the Palestinians side of the negotiating table, who is there. No one.
They are alone. Not even the other arab countries really support them.
This so called road map to peace in the middle east will have the same outcome as Oslo. Sharon will never abandon the settlements, he might tell Uncle Sam he will dismantle them but he is lying. Israel wants to impose a settlement on the arabs which gives nothing away and obviously that will never work.
There may be a chance of some kind of lasting truce if all the settlements were disbanded but I can never see that happening. Never.
So you will say they dismantled the settlements in the Sinai. Well that was different the Sinai never formed part of Biblical israel, the settlements in the occupied territories are within the confines of biblical israel. The right wingers, the settler movement and the religious fundamentalists will never allow any serious removal of the settlements. If Sharon really did try legitimately to demolish them he will be joining Rabin very shortly afterward.
There will be war in the middle east for many years to come. |
Why do you insist on protecting the Palestinians? Now, it's true that the innocent civilians like men (non-militant, nonradical), women (non-militant, non-radical) and children do not deserve to suffer at the hands of the Israelis. But in retrospect, why should the Israeli civilians have to fear for their lives every day? The PA is not an organization that should be protected. Yasser Arafat is NOT a saint, he is faaaaaaar from it. Do I have reasons for disliking Palestinians? Yes, actually they nearly killed some of my family members execution style, luckily they decided not to. But my point is, why are you trying to give the PA a good rep? On the other hand, the Israeli government is hardly a model instituion..... |
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