Interesting!

These are the kind of things that makes Muslims look bad. They should defently speak out against the threats and so on, instead of indirectly defending it.

The thing with Bosnia is that in the 1990s Alija Izetbegovic openly invited radical muslim jerks to help him out in the war and spread around some jihad. They were known during the war for their brutality and disregard of human rights. When the war was over some of them settled around and decided to stay, which pretty much changed the country's mentality. Before 1990 the bosnian muslims were totally normal people. They were drinking, eating pork, not wearing scarfs and all the other things normal people do. Now they're worse than Kosovo.

___________________
1+1=10

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Anyway, my main point is this: How can it be that muslims accept that non-muslims violate all sorts of aspects of Islam (e.g. I don't honour the Ramadan), but go totally insane over this violation? Are there, like, degrees of sins? Some of them being so bad that even when performed by non-muslims they are disastrous? I don't fucking get it - but as a staunch agnostic liberal it pisses me off no end.

Well, if the cartoons we're offensive and disrespectful in nature, I can understand why most Muslims would be pissed off. But that's about as far as I'm willing to let them go, being pissed and/or publicly demonstrating their discontent (non-violently ofcourse).

And to answer your question, it's because many muslims are fucking stupid when it comes to their faith. I don't think I need to emphasize how stagnated mainstream Muslim though/culture has become. One big problem is that many, if not most, Muslims make little to no effort to understand their religion and mostly rely on their parents (who are usually just as ignorant) or "Imams" (not that there aren't some good Imams out there, but for the most part they're not very well educated and generally don't know what they're talking about on several issues). What Muslims all around the world rightnow need to do and realize is that Islam needs to be re-interpreted because we don't like in 600 A.D. Arabia anymore! Now this cultural/intellectual stangnace abviously doesn't have good results; most muslims have been conditioned to believe certain things as being completely unacceptable (mainly certain forms of blasphomy/prophet bashing, I can't think of many other issues that would make them flip out) and bearing due penalties which is stupid. They need to realize that first of all, if they live in the West, they are NOT in Muslim societies and therefore should not expect non-Muslims to respect all of their religious sensitivities (especially if they don't know what they are). Secondly, they have to respect the laws of that country and stay within those legal limits. Thirdly, the implication of freedom of speech is that sometimes they will have to listen to views that they absolutely lothe but still have tolerate it, since in a democracy, freedom of speech is everyones right.

But the good news is, that most first generation Muslims (atleast in the US), ppl brought up and raised here, usually tend to eigther make an honest effort themselves to understand/interpret their faith if being religious is what they choose to do OR the reject it and do what they want to do. (Point being, unlike Muslims from the old world, the younger generations are rebelling against the "do what tradition/your parents and religious 'authorities' (I use the term authority very sarcasticly here) tell you to do and don't think for yourself" mentality.)

One last comment I'd like to add, I guess in order to clearly answer your question, its not that Muslims expect non-Muslims to comply with most aspects of Islam (like in your Ramadan example), but they expect them to not disrespect their religion eigther.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

U DO NOT DRAW MOHAMMED

especially in some lame ass cartoon

if u do he better be doing cool things like changing water to funk


fekin Denmicks

If the Danish government funds or sponsors this paper I would see some rational in the critism of the muslims.

If the images are as insensitive as the muslims claim (turbine-bomb etc), then yes I don't think it would hurt the paper to apologize for its insensitivity.

However otherwise (if it is not a government funded/sponsored paper) there is really no issue here, this is simply freedom of speech at work. And the proper response is not to threaten to blow up all the Danish people or the newspaper, but simply to voice your concern in civil, peaceful and democratic manner.



btw, Denmark welcome to the club

___________________
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quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 They were drinking, eating pork, not wearing scarfs and all the other things normal people do. Now they're worse than Kosovo.

So they actually try to follow their faith? Fucking freaks.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by Yoepus If the Danish government funds or sponsors this paper I would see some rational in the critism of the muslims.

There's no such thing as a government funded news paper in Denmark. Two of the TV-networks and four radio stations are allowed to rake in some sort of tax from anyone possessing a radio or a TV, but news papers are independent of state funding.
As to the nature of the drawings, I think some of them were insensitive to feelings of orthodox muslims (the cartoonists were told to "draw Mohammed as they imagined he looked like", no limits were imposed by the paper), but no more insensitive than the tons and tons of caricatures I've seen of Jesus, God, Moses, or whathaveyou.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 The thing with Bosnia is that in the 1990s Alija Izetbegovic openly invited radical muslim jerks to help him out in the war and spread around some jihad.

Uhmm, so that means we should blame it on you Croatians and the Serbs for fighting Bosnia in the first place then
Actually, I just found out that Turkey was among the complaining nations, too. *sigh*


shaolin_Z: Thanks for trying to answer my main question. I have a few comments to your reply.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z And to answer your question, it's because many muslims are fucking stupid when it comes to their faith. I don't think I need to emphasize how stagnated mainstream Muslim though/culture has become. One big problem is that many, if not most, Muslims make little to no effort to understand their religion and mostly rely on their parents (who are usually just as ignorant) or "Imams" (not that there aren't some good Imams out there, but for the most part they're not very well educated and generally don't know what they're talking about on several issues).

But we're not only talking about conservative and/or poor people here, but government officials. Surely you can expect these to have a minimum of education and reasoning ability?
Btw. I read some article, where some wise guy was quoted as saying that there was in fact no clear ban on drawings of Mohammed in the Quran. You know if that's true?

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z But the good news is, that most first generation Muslims (atleast in the US), ppl brought up and raised here, usually tend to eigther make an honest effort themselves to understand/interpret their faith if being religious is what they choose to do OR the reject it and do what they want to do. (Point being, unlike Muslims from the old world, the younger generations are rebelling against the "do what tradition/your parents and religious 'authorities' (I use the term authority very sarcasticly here) tell you to do and don't think for yourself" mentality.)

I think that you're right here. At least the young muslims I know (although only from Turkey, Pakistan, and Iran, so it's a bad sample) are very much at ease.

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z One last comment I'd like to add, I guess in order to clearly answer your question, its not that Muslims expect non-Muslims to comply with most aspects of Islam (like in your Ramadan example), but they expect them to not disrespect their religion eigther.

Hmm. I'm not sure what is meant by "disrespect": It's not the case that the believers of Islam is being discriminated against, or that anyone has said that they should not be allowed to practice their faith to whatever extent they like. True, when publishing the drawings the paper knew that there would be conservative muslims who would feel offended, but is that a disrespect of the religion? Are gays disrespectful of Christianity when they hold hand in public, just because they know that it probably agitates fundamentalist Christians?

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic As to the nature of the drawings, I think some of them were insensitive to feelings of orthodox muslims (the cartoonists were told to "draw Mohammed as they imagined he looked like", no limits were imposed by the paper), but no more insensitive than the tons and tons of caricatures I've seen of Jesus, God, Moses, or whathaveyou.

That's all fair and fine, but you have to keep in mind that charicatures of Jesus etc come from the same culture that used to be predominantly Christian whereas the Muhmmamad ones don't. So it even easier for people get defensive/offended.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic shaolin_Z: Thanks for trying to answer my main question. I have a few comments to your reply.

It's all good. That what I'm here for

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic But we're not only talking about conservative and/or poor people here, but government officials. Surely you can expect these to have a minimum of education and reasoning ability?

Well, they're probably acting mostly on public pressure/expectations of them to do/say something. And to be honest, most "muslim" countries have incredibly corrupt Governments/leaders for the most part. They couldn't care less about Islam/Muslims/etc.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Btw. I read some article, where some wise guy was quoted as saying that there was in fact no clear ban on drawings of Mohammed in the Quran. You know if that's true?

I'm pretty sure there you won't find any Quranic reference explicitly forbidding drawing the prophet. The reason (way back in the day) was due to the fact that Arabia had just come out of a very paganistic idol worshiping society and the religious leaders of the time decided that it would be a bad idea to have imagery etc of the prophet as they were afraid people would start worshiping him rather than god (and a fear of Islam, from an Islamic perspective ofcourse, making the same mistake as Chritianity and calling one of God's Prophets' God/Son of God/whatever). That was the orginal reasoning behind prohibiting any imagery of the prophet. They didn't want people to start worshiping a man instead of God. Back then imagery/statues/idols were generally associated with worship.

That being said, there still is no Quranic refernce that I've ever come across that prohibits drawing the prophet. And I'm pretty damn sure that if there was, I would know about it by now.

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic I think that you're right here. At least the young muslims I know (although only from Turkey, Pakistan, and Iran, so it's a bad sample) are very much at ease.

Yeah, I think the Muslim world is going through a similar phase rightnow like Christian world did. Eventhough there's no church/hierarchical structure in Islam, the 'religious' leaders (extremests/fundamentalists/hypocrites) have significant influence in many spheres of social and political life. This is pretty ironic, especially considering the fact that in Islam there's no church that tells you how to interpret/follow religion or any intermediary between the individual and God. But the younger generation, especially in the West, are rebelling against this system of control and indoctrination, which is good news. If you choose to adopt a faith, it should be because YOU chose it as opposed to social pressure or your parents hammering ideas into your head you're not allowed to question. And if you don't agree with the religion, then you're free to leave it and do what you feel is right/what you want to do. It even basically states this in the Quran.

Al-Baqara verse 256:

"Let there be no compulsion in religion"

That's a literal translation from Arabic but what it means is that you can't impose religion on others/force them to convert etc.

And there's another verse which I can't exatly remember rightnow or it's reference, so I'm going to paraphrase here. As you're probably aware, free will is a very important concept in Islam. Now the verse goes something like:

(God's all like) : "if I wanted everyone to believe, I would have made it so"

...but the point is that he wants you to make a choice.

Moral of the story: The Quran pretty much explicitly forbids imposing religion on others. Belief in religion/God has to be a personal choice, otherwise it doesn't mean anything. (hmm.. I fear I've gotton a little off topic here and now forgot why I brought this up )

quote:

Originally posted by trancaholic Hmm. I'm not sure what is meant by "disrespect": It's not the case that the believers of Islam is being discriminated against, or that anyone has said that they should not be allowed to practice their faith to whatever extent they like. True, when publishing the drawings the paper knew that there would be conservative muslims who would feel offended, but is that a disrespect of the religion? Are gays disrespectful of Christianity when they hold hand in public, just because they know that it probably agitates fundamentalist Christians?

Well, I think I read someone on this very page say something about one of the cartoons displaying Muhammad with a bomb strapped to his head or something of that nature. If that's the case, it pretty easy to understand why they would be offened for multiple reason:

1) It re-inforces that negative stereo-type of Arabs and Muslims as people obsessed with blowing shit up (themselves in the process too).

2) There's a common perception amongst many people that Islam is inherently violent/hostile towards non-muslims and encourages such behaviour.

3) Now, from 1 and 2 it follows that Muhammad was a dude of such nature. So it doesn't only become an attack on Arabs or Muslims, but also the Prothet and the religion.

Plus, nowadays with all the terrosim/fear of terrosism, Islamophobia in the air, authorities breaching the privacy of Muslims/detention + torture without cause or charge, all this gives bad vibes to Muslims and non-Muslims (and vice-versa). So naturaly most Muslims are on the defensive and constantly feel like their life is potentially in danger (not necessarily because of an angry mob, but more like a CIA/FBI/MI-6 agent or some law enforcement figure/goverment agent). And I wouldn't be too surprised if you or many other weren't aware of this, as the media pays little to no attention to this (I mostly learned about alot of this stuff from human rights groups). Plus, many non-Muslims fear Muslims as a potential threat/ticking time bombs, and it's hard to blame them if that what the TV and newspapers are feeding them. So there's alot of needless tension based on lack of information/understanding and way too much dis-information/misunderstanding.

I guess that's the situation in a nutshell.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

quote:

Originally posted by shaolin_Z So they actually try to follow their faith? Fucking freaks.

Well, how many christians you know that don't eat pork? It is in the old testament. Guess none of them are following their faith.

There's basically a difference between being a fundie and being a normally religious person, and it's primarily shown in how much merit you give to unimportant parts of the religion.

___________________
1+1=10

In America, this would be a major scandal and the newspaper would apologize instantly. Religious and cultural sensitivities are very important here and everyone is pretty much 'in the same boat'.

But in Denmark, these Muslim immigrants aren't entitled to an uproar because they're not Danish citizens. Even if/when they do become technically naturalized, they still won't have exactly the same rights and privileges as Danes and will always be considered outsiders.

Denmark is not a 'country of immigrants' like the US, it has an established society and history like all of Europe. Muslims should understand that if they want to enjoy the benefits of a Western-European lifestyle and economy, they shouldn't suddenly think that this is America and they can claim the same rights as everyone else. Europe is different!

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 Well, how many christians you know that don't eat pork? It is in the old testament. Guess none of them are following their faith.

I'd rather not comment on that.

quote:

Originally posted by DrUg_Tit0 There's basically a difference between being a fundie and being a normally religious person, and it's primarily shown in how much merit you give to unimportant parts of the religion.

It not like you can pick and choose which parts you like and which parts you don't, unless you think you're better informed than God. And if you don't think it's from a divine source (and unadultrated, atleast some particular aspect uo're concerned with), why would you follow religion X in the first place?

So in your eyes, anyone who "lives by the book" is a fundie? Well, please define fundamentalist for me then so I know exactly what you're talking about.

___________________
"The Greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." -Stephen Hawking
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me— and there was no one left to speak out for me." -Martin Niemöller

Last edited by shaolin_Z on Oct-25-2005 at 20:16