Musical Theory Question for ya!

I've been producing now for around 3 years, though 70% of my productions have been remixes as I've never really been happy with the chord progressions in my mixes.

So I've decided to delve a bit deeper into music theory and was wondering if someone could advise me on the best type of scales to use for Trance.

I understand that Minors are a plus point, but what about the different scales. Are there particular scales that suit Trance music???

Should I stick to standard Major/Minor scales, or try using different scales such as Harmonic Minors or Melodic Minors.

Im sure someones going to want to post that its all down to what sounds good etc, tho that doesn't really help.

Any1 got any points? In the same situation?

___________________
X-Trance @ SoundClick.Com

(Un)fortunately, music is not just about what works on paper. It's very much a hands-on art and that extends to all aspects of it. In music, the best way to learn is to do. So just try it out! Make your own experiences as to what sounds good and what doesn't. I know, you want a formula or a recipe, but trust me, there is none.

___________________
Here's my latest: rolling tech house and laid-back progressive trance

http://soundcloud.com/wayfu



Chronology – a wayfinder discography in progress. Roughly sorted by date of creation.

Last edited by wayfinder on Dec-07-2004 at 13:15

I knew I was gunna get this sort of reply.

I understand that allready, but Im not asking about 'MUSIC', I'm asking about 'TRANCE'.

There are certain rules (loose ones) that Trance follows, and I am wondering if there are any to do with certain scales.

Please can someone advise, without giving the obvious answer!

___________________
X-Trance @ SoundClick.Com

You just don't seem to understand: there is no recipe "use this scale and that key and bake in the oven for 2 hours".

Also, TRANCE is a kind of MUSIC. I don't even know what that comment was about.

___________________
Here's my latest: rolling tech house and laid-back progressive trance

http://soundcloud.com/wayfu



Chronology – a wayfinder discography in progress. Roughly sorted by date of creation.

@ManTrance:

I understand your question`. I just know that in Psytrance often phrygian scales are used. But I don`t know if there are typical scales different to the common minor/major in trance too.

@wayfinder:

Of course you can`t take some rules and some paper and hope you write down a No 1 Hit (even though some crazy freaks like Bach or Beethoven made some nice tracks this way ;-) ) But I think it can be useful to analyze music to make its character more obvious.

Music becomes boring when it follows rules.

The way I create a chord progression is usually start with some strings, play a standard chord, say E-flat-minor, and stick with that scale, hold the chord for a bar, then change to another chord which follows on nicely. Work for either 4 bars or 8 bars. Maybe 4 bars played twice with some variation on the 2nd is a good way to go.

You want the chords to feel right when it comes back to the first chord, so maybe add a 7th chord for tension. Then a good thing to try after you've got something you're happy with, is to invert the chords so the notes spaces aren't so big between the chords.

This is how I usually work, then I build a bassline around it.

Give it a try, everyone's different though, so you may not feel comfortable working this way.

___________________

A nice (FREE!) book:

http://www.completechords.com/Pages..._Full_Index.htm

As much as people might try to tell you otherwise, there are standards for every genre of music, that if you follow you will create a standard piece of music for that genre (look at DnB for example - yeah sounds great but its all exactly the same stuff, just produced differently)

For trance tho-

Minor keys without the sharpened 7th is what you want to get that nice euphoric sound. If you whack in the 7th it just sounds that little bit too minor, and a bit baroque! I can't remember if thats harmonic or melodic tho... doesnt really matter.

As most people know C minor is the standard trance key. D minor is a bit more euphoric, F minor is a bit darker. These are just my views mind and are totally subjective, so i dont want anyone going "No its not". Just play thru the keys yourself and see how they make you feel.

Then just use lots of V's I's, III's, some VI's ect. Then throw in some inversions, put it on a big synth, kick on the beat and OHH and bass off the beat. Bam. Trance. It won't be any good, but you gotta start somewhere.


Hope thats a bit more help.

___________________
check out my tunes and my mixes on soundcloud
my released tunes

Really appreciate the replies guys. Made a lot of sense! Glad that people understand where Im coming from, and wanna help, instead of giving the obvious (and patrionising) advise that the minority (you know who u r) of TA's do.

Look out for Alpha Concept. The production skills are getting there, just need to channel my passion & ideas!

BRING IT ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

___________________
X-Trance @ SoundClick.Com

Last edited by ManTrance on Nov-13-2004 at 01:02

Trying using the Aeolian Mode - most dance music I've analyzed seems to fall into this category best. Some good cadences in this mode are:

VI-VII-i
VI-v-i

York - Reachers Of Civilization (Rank 1 Remix) is in Aeolian mode and uses one of these types of cadences - and it sounds amazing!!


Aeolian Mode uses similar chord progressions/retrogressions as is done with classical harmonic chord changes, so the switch to this "modern mode" is almost null.

Push - Strange World is in Phrygian or Dorian Mode I believe...


The best way to get "trance" chords is to study several tunes you like and see where they they go and why. Most trance tunes are in Aeolian Mode, so try analyzing in that mode first. You might also want to try using classical chord progressions/retrogressions as well. Kid Vicious - Re-Form uses extensive classical harmonic chord changes and it's brilliant!!!! Also, Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun uses Neapolitan 6ths, which makes for a NICE 1/2 stepped chord change. There really is no set "trance" chords. It's all about how you use what you know, be it classical training, modern training, or both. Needless to say, some things absolutely DON'T work well with trance at all!


Here are some chords you might want to experiment with in Aeolian Mode:
VI-iv-i Example: Technique - Sun Is Shining (Matt Darey Remix)
VI-VII-i
i-v-VI-iv
i-N6 (moves from the tonic to the neapolitan 2nd - a minor i to a Major II by 1/2 step) Example: Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun

A really GREAT tune to study is Brother Browne ft Frankee - Under The Water (Starecase Mix). This tune has so much going on!

Some advice on composing: if you get stuck, drop it and come back later when you have some time to space yourself from the problem. Sometimes I come back to my work after a few days and toss out 1/2 the work I was doing because I have a better idea! The best practice for composing is "write, rewrite, & rewrite some more." Some of the greatest classical composers would come do rewrites on their work years after it was "finished." For example, Anton Bruckner was rewriting some of his symphonies DECADES after he "finished" them!!!

And remember...
it all comes back to the tonic!!!


Cheers!

JP8000Lover

Last edited by JP8000Lover on Nov-13-2004 at 23:06

Some interesting information from ..messytechie & JP8000Lover. Although I don't have the slighest idea what any of it means. I'm interested in finding out. Do you have any links that you can reccomend to learn these things? I don't know what minor keys mean, or major keys, or d-minor, or c-minor, sharpened 7ths? E-flat? all that Vii Vi stuff. Neapolitan 6ths? Are you guys just making this stuff up j/k.

Phrygian mode
Dorian Mode
Aeolian Mode

what are modes? Actually this is where it gets really bad... what are chords? lol.

Some interesting information from ..messytechie & JP8000Lover. Although I don't have the slightest idea what any of it means. I'm interested in finding out. Do you have any links that you can recommend to learn these things? I don't know what minor keys mean, or major keys, or d-minor, or c-minor, sharpened 7ths? E-flat? all that Vii Vi stuff. Neapolitan 6ths? Are you guys just making this stuff up j/k.

Phrygian mode
Dorian Mode
Aeolian Mode

what are modes? Actually this is where it gets really bad... what are chords? lol.


If you have a few minutes, you can learn answers to all your questions here:
http://www.musictheory.net/

That site also has a great chord calculator (too bad it doesn't have inversions). Go to the chord calculator and select: C, Major, and I. That will show you I chord of C Major. Now select N6. That's a Neapolitan 6th. Play that chord change on your keyboard, then listen to Paul Oakenfold - Southern Sun (Tiesto Remix). That type of chord change isn't typical in trance, but it was done beautifully by Oakie.


A good page for understanding the names of notes. Look in Scale Degrees:
http://www.mibac.com/Pages/Theory/Main_Theory.htm


Chord stuff:
A chord is a combination of at least three distinct notes.

Chord notation (all that viio, VI, V6/4, etc.) is how we represent chords.

The numbers correspond to the root of the chord i.e. if you are in the key of C, a I chord's root is C, a ii chord's root is D, etc.

Uppercase means the chord is a Major chord (a happy-sounding chord)

Lowercase means the chord is a minor chord (a sad-sounding chord)

Those are just the basics...




Here's a link to explain modes:
http://www.8notes.com/articles/modes/


One thing though. For all modes (in my example Aeolian Mode), when they say that the mode starts on those white keys, that is not the whole picture. Any mode can start on any key, just as long as it fits. Modes are made by a combination of whole steps and half steps. Half steps are made when you go from one key to the key's neighbor i.e. c->c#. Whole steps are made when you go to the neighbor's neighbor i.e. c->d. The Aeolian Mode consists of whwwhww where w=whole step and h=half step. Go to a keyboard and pick any key. Follow the pattern and you have the Aeolian Mode for that key.

And for those interested in every conceivable mode:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/modename.html


Cheers!

JP8000Lover