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TranceAddict Forums > Other > Political Discussion / Debate > September 11th Attacks - Do You Think It Was a Conspiracy?
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
pkc's socialist hands would never want to hang on to occrider's conservative balls



my interest in this type of stuff is to keep me occupied when im bored at work. so i read all the stuff in this thread over the last few weeks, and im still totally unconvinced. we can sit here all day, and you can link me til youre blue in the face, and it doesnt change the fact that all you can point to is conjecture and possibilities.

like i already said, inconsistencies are all you theorists have. yes, you might well be correct. but you still dont have the missing link so you can say 'i told you so'. sorry.


Hey, I'm still waiting for the missing link that more than just purports George H. W. Bush's involvement in the dirty dealings of the Iran-Contra affair, but even though I'm 99.9% sure that he was complicit in it, I know that will never happen.

This is a very different story, however. This was an attrocity of great magnitude, a horrendous attack on U.S. soil that was spurned by corporate greed and possibly even carried out by operatives that were trained here in the U.S. Heck, U.S. intelligence was even blocked from investigating these guys, and two of them had even been training to fly at the CIA linked Huffman Aviation in Venice, FL. We know now that Mohammad Atta, who was allegedly (by our own governments account) a Muslim extremist, had a stripper girlfriend named Amanda and also seemed to enjoy both alcohol and cocaine. I mean, if you still believe the "official" storyline after actually researching all of this - then I have a bridge to sell you!

Really though, if the majority of people are as obtuse as you are then I guess that we'll never make any progress in getting to the bottom of the real story. So, unless someone comes forth with some relevatory evidence then sure, we'll never really know the whole truth. I say this especially in light of the fact of the tremendous stonewalling which was and/or is still being done by the upper echelons of our government in their grand attempt to thwart any real investigation. But hey, that's just one of several hundred things that raises a red flag in regards to their coverup. I guess you still believe the fantastic story that 19 (allegedly fanatic) Muslims foiled one of the most highly trained and most technologically advanced intelligence gathering organizations in this world. Those guys could barely even fly a single engined plane, let alone miraculously pull off those high G-force maneuvers (which even veteran pilots consider to be a nearly impossible feat in a Boeing 767.)

Also, it's really not my intent to try and convince you of anything. I'm simply bringing the evidence forth in hopes that other people with any sort of insight (or should I say, clue?) might be able to paint for themselves a better picture of what really happened on 9/11 (and the coverup surrounding it.) The circumstantial evidence is all there, and there are many material witnesses (as well as many family members of the victims) who have since come forth to say that the "official" storyline is bogus - and that's despite of all the gag orders thet have been placed on the FAA controllers, firefighters, policemen, former government agents, employees, etc. While there's not currently anything that could be classified as a smoking gun, there are just too many things that point in certain directions in regards to who or what was behind the attacks. Just the odds alone of those three buildings all coming down due to fire is something like a trillion to one. Once you factor in PNAC's call for a "New Pearl Harbor," the major oil companies wish to dominate the oil and gas reserves in the Middle East, the right-wing think tanks' geopolitical calls for America to take over the entire worlds natural resources, and the sheer megalomaniacal ferver of the world's power elite to dominate everything - then yeah, I think you might actually have a motive behind the attacks of 9/11. If you don't see a conspiracy there then you're simply either another talking head being paid by the very same establishment which is guilty of murderous treason, or you're just amazingly out of touch with the reality of this world.

And BTW - as far as Bill Clinton's Monica Lewinsky scandal, politics were definitely the greatest motivating factor for his being incriminated. However, getting a BJ in the White House is hardly even something that I would consider a scandal these days. That's not even remotely the worst thing in which Clinton could have been implicated, but you're obviously already too well aware of the inner workings of our certainly non-corrupt society and the benevolent forces that guide it.



quote:
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident.

- Arthur Schopenhauer

Last edited by Trancer-X on Dec-13-2005 at 13:15

Old Post Dec-13-2005 06:31  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

By Deanna Spingola
William Rodriguez, a 9-11 Survivor
August 25, 2005 06:13 AM EST


This past week I had the great pleasure of meeting William Rodriquez, a humble man from Puerto Rico who worked at the World Trade Center. He looked healthy in spite of suffering from many 9-11 related toxic diseases.

The occasion was at a special meeting at the Schaumburg, Illinois Township Library in the Chicago suburbs. This informative presentation served as a memorial for the many victims as we approach the fourth year anniversary of 9-11. In addition to William other knowledgeable and well qualified individuals presented their thoughts: Phil Jayhan, Dave VonKleist and Christopher Bollyn, a journalist with the American Free Press. This event, which should have been standing room only, was sponsored in part by the American Free Press as well as Jimmy Walter and Eric Hufschmid, a physicist and author of Painful Questions.

A press release was sent to all of the print media in the Chicago area about a month in advance of this event. There was a very tiny isolated notice about the event in one of the Chicago papers. Surely the local newspapers would wish to interview the participants on such an important subject as 9-11. But, only one Hispanic television station sent a journalist and a camera. So we must assume that the other Chicago news organizations have already determined exactly what they desire their readers to believe about 9-11. Let's not deviate from the government version and confuse people with the truth!

William Rodriquez gave an outstanding, sensitive discourse of his experiences on that fateful morning. He appears to be a genuinely warm, gentle caring human being and it is easy to believe that his relationship with his many fellow employees was much more - they were also his long time friends. Daily, he met with them for breakfast in the Windows on the World Restaurant on the 106th floor. Nearly two hundred people, most of William's friends, were in the restaurant that morning. None of them survived. Not only did he lose his job on 11 September 2001, he lost most of his friends. William would have also perished had he been in the restaurant that morning but he arrived at work at 8:30 a.m. rather than his usual time of 8:00 a.m.

William had worked for the New York Port Authority for about twenty years. He was in charge of the three stairwells - A, B and C. They were narrow and without windows. There were also 150 elevators in the building. He knew the building well. His job included the maintenance of the three narrow stairwells in the class "A" building - WTC1, the north tower. On a typical morning, he would have breakfast then begin at the top of the building and methodically work his way down. Arriving at 8:30 on the morning of 9-11 he went to the maintenance office located on the first sublevel, one of six sub-basements beneath ground level. There were a total of fourteen people in the office at this time. As he was talking with others, there was a very loud massive explosion which seemed to emanate from between sub-basement B2 and B3. There were twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

At first he thought it was a generator that had exploded. But the cement walls in the office cracked from the explosion. "When I heard the sound of the explosion, the floor beneath my feet vibrated, the walls started cracking and everything started shaking." said Rodriguez, who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia, supervisor for the American Maintenance Company.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion's resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the tower.


A fellow worker Felipe David came into the office. "He had been standing in front of a freight elevator on sub-level 1 about 400 feet from the office when fire burst out of the elevator shaft, causing his injuries." The skin on his face had been peeled away by the heat of the blast and he was horribly burned on thirty-three percent of his body. "He was burned so badly from the basement explosion that flesh was hanging from his face and both arms." William asks: "How could a jetliner hit 90 floors above and burn a man's arms and face to a crisp in the basement below within seconds of impact?" William led Felipe David outside to safety. William continued to hear people screaming and returned to the building in spite of police orders. There were people encased in elevators. There were people who needed help.

There was a swooshing sound coming from the freight elevators on B2 and B3. Water from the fire sprinklers from all of the floors had gone into the elevator shaft. There were two individuals trapped below who were in danger of drowning. Rodriguez was able to secure a long enough ladder to extend into the shaft to facilitate their escape from a watery grave.

He had possession of just one of the five master keys that opened all of the stairwell doors at each of the floors in the 110 story building. The other four key holders were trained for emergencies. They had already left the building. Firemen from New York City Unit Six arrived. Each fireman, in addition to protective clothing, had about 70 pounds of equipment. William, who now had the only key, led the firemen up stairwell B. Firemen were going up as victims were coming down. The stairwells were narrow with no windows.

The firemen made it up to the 27th floor but were exhausted from the burden of their equipment. As William had ascended up the stairwell he, as well as the firemen, had heard explosions from the 20th through the 30th floor. Chunks of the building were falling down all around them and they could literally hear the building coming down. Yet, the firemen continued to climb and give aid. After all, they assumed the fire was isolated at the location where the plane entered.

On the 33rd floor, William was able to procure some dust masks from a maintenance office. The air was thick with smoke. On the 33rd floor he found a woman laying on the floor in a fetal position. She didn't know where to go or what to do. They had fire drills twice a year but because of employee turnover, not everyone had a clear view of emergency procedures. While some individuals intuitively respond appropriately in an emergency, others are absolutely paralyzed by their fears.

Strangely, while William was on the 33rd floor he heard lots of very loud noise as if someone was moving heavy equipment and furniture around on the 34th floor. The reason this is interesting is that the 34th floor was completely empty. Elevators did not stop at the 34th floor. It was off limits due to a construction project. He said that this was the first time that he felt fear.

They continued to ascend to the 39th floor. This is as far as William got before he was turned back by the firefighters. As he began his descent he heard the plane hit the south tower.

He made it back down to the hole where the front doors used to be before they were blown out. The bottoms of the elevator doors were blown partially open. He couldn't breath, his eyes burned, his leg was burned. Someone yelled: "Don't look back!" William looked back momentarily then raced for the first cover he saw - a fire truck. That is where he was found. Pulverized concrete mixed with asbestos and smoke created a dark cloud of doom. Flashlights were necessary. William received temporary medical assistance and then went to work trying to find survivors.

The mangled bloodied bodies of the jumpers blanketed the ground. William will never forget the anguish he felt or the sight of this senseless horrific carnage. This was evidence of desperation - people desperate to escape possible death by suffocation or by fire chose death by jumping. The fires were contained and isolated. Much of the flame actually burned outside of the building upon impact. The fire was out - even at the giant gaping hole where the plane breached the building where people worked, talked with friends and felt relatively safe.

William Rodriguez saved lives that day. Currently he is attempting to alert the public to what actually happened. He is a courageous witness to those terrible events. The controlled censored media doesn't really appear willing to report the real news but rather they promote whatever the propaganda ministry wants the masses to believe. It takes continuous courage to go against such opposition but that is the kind of man he is. He says that he owes it to his friends - those that were slaughtered for some covert political agenda.

William spent hours testifying before the 9-11 Commission behind closed doors. His testimony as an eye witness does not appear anywhere in the 576 page report.
But after all, Bush told us who did it, so why bother to examine the evidence or talk with the witnesses. The only agency that was allowed to investigate the circumstances of the event was FEMA.

The National Institute of Safety and Technology (NIST), an independent investigative group ignored his plea to tell his story. He contacted them four times but never got a response. NIST was funded by the government which gives you a pretty good idea of just how subjective their findings were. They were paid $35 million dollars and the investigation lasted two years. The taxpayers certainly did not get their money's worth.

William Rodriguez also contacted the FBI who never followed up. The media was not interested. CNN spent a day filming and interviewing him at his home but when it was shown the following day it was thoroughly edited. Some reporters have subtly warned Rodriguez to keep quiet as he could jeopardize his life. They said "You do not know who you are dealing with!" He already looked death in the face and he will probably continue to courageously tell his story. He is speaking the truth and he is speaking it for his friends. He says: "I am living on borrowed time since I probably should be dead anyway."

William Rodriguez is the lead plaintiff in a RICO lawsuit filed against George W. (warmonger) Bush and others. He is alleging conspiracy to commit murder and other crimes. So not only is he speaking for his friends but he is seeking justice for all of the victims, both those who died and those who were injured.

The World Trade Center twin towers were built from 1968 to 1972. To fireproof the building a mixture of asbestos and cement was sprayed during the construction. However, this fireproofing technique was banned in 1971 by the New York City Council. By then there was already hundreds of tons of this material in the building. Later, some of this material was removed yet there was still about 100 tons of asbestos remaining. Asbestos was used in other areas that would not leave the harmful residue unless there were extraordinary circumstances such as those that occurred on 9-11.

William Rodriguez says: "I have tried to tell my story to everybody, but nobody wants to listen. It is very strange what is going on here in supposedly the most democratic country in the world. In my home country of Puerto Rico and all the other Latin American countries, I have been allowed to tell my story uncensored. But here, I can't even say a word." Thank goodness for the alternative media where one may still discover the truth.

On 11 September 2001 our defense systems failed, NORAD failed, our president, intent on a goat story, failed to immediately respond; the twin towers failed - they collapsed - the only known steel frame buildings in history claimed to have failed because of fire. Other steel frame buildings have been known to burn for hours and hours yet they did not collapse. Of course, we do not know the cause of their failure as the evidence was rendered unavailable for investigation - either immediately sold or otherwise withheld. There was also the failure of the local authorities to warn the people about the toxic air that burned their lungs and blanketed their homes and would create life long health problems. They were told that there was no problem.

After 9-11 there was a failure to discover exactly who made millions on all of the put options on American Airlines and United Airlines. That was another failure. So many failures and I haven't heard of one person reprimanded for inefficiency. However, there are those who were promoted.

However, there were also great successes:
The firemen who gave their lives - crushed in the totally unexpected and unusual building collapses. There were medical people who tenderly treated the trauma struck victims. The policemen did not fail and the thousands of volunteers who searched for the dead and dying did not fail. There were search and rescue dogs who did not fail - many of whom have since died of cancer. And William Rodriguez did not fail. He acted appropriately -just like a man of integrity and courage should act. He did not hesitate. Unlike others who should have responded immediately, he sprang into action and made selfless sacrifices for others.



http://www.theconservativevoice.com...le.html?id=7762

Old Post Dec-13-2005 09:03  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

William Rodriguez

video interview:

http://www.911proof.com/resources/i...nsept05snow.wmv






Old Post Dec-13-2005 09:19  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
What you don't know can't hurt you, right Occ?

Anyway, at this point I think that I've grown to be more cynical than skeptical.


Quite the contrary ... I strive to learn about everything just as much as you. It's a question of what I can trust that limits what I believe. Let's use the belief in a dieity for example ... there's a pethora of historical writings and first hand accounts detailing the existence of "God". Supposed evidence of his existence goes back several thousands of years, yet I'm not going to start believing in his existence anytime soon unless I see something slightly more tangible . Personally I think cynycism and skepticism end up going hand in hand in due time.


___________________
Retro ...

Old Post Dec-13-2005 09:23  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

I barely even touched upon even a small fraction the facts surrounding 9/11 which have been so conveniently swept under the rug by the mainstream media.

I could continue to delve into why NORAD stood down, why the FAA Controllers became confused because of all the false blips on their radar screens, etc. However, for the sake of brevity (and the fact that I get tired of typing), I'm just going to post some links to video footage and such. Thankfully for those of us who actually want to learn the truth, there's a good bit of evidence which has been archived online.


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/I...wtc.msnbc.2.wmv

http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/9....reporter.1.wmv
http://terrorize.dk/911/comments/91....jack.kelley.rm

http://terrorize.dk/911/comments/91....explosives.wmv

http://terrorize.dk/911/witnesses/911.wtc.witness.2.wmv

http://www.infowars.com/Video/911/wtc7_pbs.WMV

NPR Clip talking about how George Tenet had warned of an imminent attack (.mp3)

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:00  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted


By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
STAFF WRITERS

September 12, 2001


The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."

Security guard Hermina Jones said officials had recently taken steps to secure the towers against aerial attacks by installing bulletproof windows and fireproof doors in the 22nd-floor computer command center.

"When the fire started, the room was sealed," said Jones, who was in the command center when explosions rocked the building. "Flames were shooting off the walls....We started putting wet towels under the doors. The Fire Department unsealed the door and grabbed us by the hand and said, 'Run!' "

Security worker Diane Easton said she was out front writing tickets when notice of "a plane flying too low" placed security personal on alert.

"The plane went right through the building...and debris started falling everywhere, then 15 minutes later the second plane," Easton said.

Nancy Joyner said several police officers were knocked down and then were stampeded in the ensuing frenzy.

"People were flying out of the windows; there was nothing we could do," Joyner said. "People were pulled from the top floors by the wind tunnel created."


http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local...0,6794009.story

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:03  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

Ben Fountain, 42, a financial analyst with Fireman's Fund, was coming out of the Chambers Street Station, headed for his office on the 47th floor of the south tower.

How could they let this happen? They knew this building was a target. Over the past few weeks we'd been evacuated a number of times, which is unusual. I think they had an inkling something was going on.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010914...74592-5,00.html

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:06  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
Come on man, give me a break.


For what?


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Retro ...

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:08  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
For what?


I guess what I should have said is -

since it's beyond the scope of your seemingly narrow perception, then it cannot be real?

I hope that was articulated well enough for you.

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:14  United States
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occrider
Traveladdict



Registered: Oct 2000
Location: New York

quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
I guess what I should have said is -

since it's beyond the scope of your seemingly narrow perception, then it cannot be real?

I hope that was articulated well enough for you.


Now then ... I'll kindly ask you, just this once, to remain civil. If you choose to continue with the ad-hominems at any further point in our discussions than I'll have no choice but to reply in kind ... not that I can't step up to the challenge because I can be one condescending motherfuc*er when I put my mind to it, but I would rather not, however, if that's the type of "intelligent" discourse you're looking for than so be it. Don't assume that I'm an intellectual inferior that you can nonchelantely cast barbs at simply because I disagree with specific arguments that you hold dear to. I would never make such an assumption about you when you disagree with any one of my arguments and I would hope that there is some likewise civility left in debate. I hope that I likewise articulated my position well enough for you.


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Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:30  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

Louis Freeh Charges 9/11 Commission Cover-Up

NewsMax.com Wires
Thursday, Nov. 17, 2005



Former FBI Director Louis J. Freeh slammed the 9/11 Commission Thursday saying it ignored – or "summarily rejected" – the most critical piece of intelligence that could have prevented the horrific attacks of September 11, 2001.

Writing in the Wall Street Journal's opinion page, Freeh gave a blistering review of the Commission and says new revelations indicate it is "a good time for the country to make some assessments of the 9/11 Commission itself."

The former Bureau Director, who resigned his position just months before Sept. 11, 2001, points out that the U.S. government had learned of the identity of Mohammed Atta the year prior to the attacks. Atta was one of the ringleaders of the group, and piloted an American Airlines plane that slammed into one of the Twin Towers.

Freeh recounts that military intelligence operation code-named "Able Danger" concluded in February 2000 that military experts had identified Atta as an al-Qaida agent operating in the U.S.

"Subsequently, military officers assigned to Able Danger were prevented from sharing this critical information with FBI agents," Freeh writes. "Why?" he ponders, suggesting the failure to share such intelligence may be a smoking gun pointing at federal malfeasance in the case.

Freeh maintains that the Able Danger intelligence, if confirmed, is "undoubtedly the most relevant fact of the entire post-9/11 inquiry . . . Yet the 9/11 Commission inexplicably concluded that it "was not historically significant."

Two members of the House, Curt Weldon (R-Pa.) and Dan Burton (R-Ind.), have reported that shortly after the 9/11 attacks they provided then-Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley with a "chart" displaying pre-attack information about al-Qaida that had been collected by Able Danger.

But a spokesperson for the White House said that "a search of National Security Council files had failed to produce such a chart."

The final 9/11 Commission report, released on July 22, 2004, concluded that "American intelligence agencies were unaware of Mr. Atta until the day of the attacks."

Writes Freeh: "This now looks to be embarrassingly wrong."

In fact, Freeh discloses that 10 days before the report was released, commission staffers met with a Navy officer who said that Able Danger had identified Atta as an al-Qaida member and told the Commission the unit "had identified Mohammed Atta to be a member of an al Qaeda cell located in Brooklyn."

But the commission determined that "the officer's account was not sufficiently reliable to warrant revision of the report or further investigation.

Said Freeh: "This dismissive and apparently unsupported conclusion would have us believe that a key piece of evidence was summarily rejected in less than 10 days without serious investigation . . . "No wonder the 9/11 families were outraged by these revelations and called for a ‘new' commission to investigate."

Though Freeh never blames any Clinton administration officials by name, responsibility for the intelligence failure would squarely fall on the Clinton administration as Able Danger's information was uncovered before George Bush became president.

Congressman Weldon, who has led Congressional efforts to shed light on the Able Danger claims, alleges that Jamie Gorelick, one of the Sept. 11 Commissioners, prevented the full committee from learning of Able Danger's crucial information. Gorelick has served as deputy attorney general during the Clinton administration.

"There's a cover up here," Weldon said. "It's clear and unequivocal." Freeh argues the Able Danger information requires a new inquiry. He also praised the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter (R-Pa.), for examining some of these matters.

Specter said at one hearing: "If Mr. Atta and other 9/11 terrorists were identified before the attacks, it would be a very serious breach not to have that information passed along ... We ought to get to the bottom of it."

Freeh writes in the Journal: "Indeed we should. "The Joint Intelligence Committees should reconvene and, in addition to Able Danger team members, we should have the 9/11 commissioners appear as witnesses so the families can hear their explanation why this doesn't matter."




http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...17/122900.shtml

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:33  United States
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Trancer-X
mutatis mutandis



Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Shambhala

quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Now then ... I'll kindly ask you, just this once, to remain civil. If you choose to continue with the ad-hominems at any further point in our discussions than I'll have no choice but to reply in kind ... not that I can't step up to the challenge because I can be one condescending motherfuc*er when I put my mind to it, but I would rather not, however, if that's the type of "intelligent" discourse you're looking for than so be it. Don't assume that I'm an intellectual inferior that you can nonchelantely cast barbs at simply because I disagree with specific arguments that you hold dear to. I would never make such an assumption about you when you disagree with any one of my arguments and I would hope that there is some likewise civility left in debate. I hope that I likewise articulated that well enough for you.


How was I not being civil? By calling a spade a spade?

Just because I say something that you don't want to hear, I'm uncivil? Jeez. You need to grow some thicker skin, bro.

Old Post Dec-13-2005 10:34  United States
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